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 Post Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:55 pm 
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:faq: This has probably been covered before, but I'm relatively new to the forums even though I've followed Erfworld off and on since GITP. In reading other posts on other subjects, the distain for Jillian, at least by some, is pretty obvious. Why? Jillian may not be my favorite character, but she's certainly a central one. Yes, she's headstrong, but the same can be said of Wanda, and it's difficult to know how the DOAL has changed her basic development as a (what's the Erf-version of "person"?)

One thing that I do admire about her is the fact that her loyalty to Faq never waivered, not even when she became a barbarian.

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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:15 pm 
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    I can't speak for others, but my three main complaints are

    1) Other characters around her become worse, because otherwise pragmatic people give her things for free or cheap that they really shouldn't. In TBfGK, Ansom should have fired her for repeatedly disobeying orders, and paid Charlie or TV to make up the difference in air power. That Archon who broke Wanda's spell should have kept mum so that Jillian would be fired for losing the RCC its siege, and CC would get a bigger contract for a longer war; at the very least she should have called Ansom first to demand spell security money. Don King should have given Faq's sites to a proven competent loyalist such as Caesar. Charlie should have just told Vanna and the Unaroyal refugees to go through SR's portal and volunteer to help fight GK.

    2) She derails the plot when it's most intense. There's the dwagon doughnut battle; out of nowhere, she nopes out of Wanda's spell and it's over, an undeserved win for RCC. JS's holding a last stand against GK; she runs off and hits some random cities never mentioned before or after (and Don barely even chewed her out, despite this leading to the croaking of Slately). Parson and Charlie are duelling for the future of the world; we get her adventures in ICFYS, a city of little more than sentimental importance to anyone but her at this point.

    3) She's just not fun. A character should be engaging, interesting, and generally make the story better than if their lines and actions were given to unnamed NPCs. For example, I like that Lilith is smart, resourceful, has some good one-liners, and is probably the most developed Archon in canon; the story would be worse if she'd been dusted instead of that random blonde. I can't say any of the same for Jillian.

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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:02 pm 
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    The basic problem is that Jillian gets mistaken for a main character, when she's clearly a character shaped Macguffin, combining at least three classic types, the lost princess/royal figurehead, the morality pet (for Wanda), and the idiot ball (not always represented as a physical person) into a particularly frustrating package. As mentioned, Jillian serves as a character-shaped idiot ball a lot, making otherwise intelligent characters do mega-dumb things for plot reasons. This is a common function of a macguffin, people do dumb stuff to get it, driving the plot. But Jillian is also a lost princess and a morality pet...but she defies both tropes rather blatantly (both are supposed to be somewhat more innocent/helpless). And she's far too rebellious to make a good royal figurehead.

    The fact that Jillian is obviously neither innocent nor helpless, and even has the occasional legit insightful nugget to contribute, makes her look like a main character, but she simply doesn't fill that role in the story. Part of that is because of her DOAL bag of memory erasing hammers, which just hides another macguffin, the tool of Fate (she's probably crucial to Charlie's downfall somehow...maybe she's what Parson is supposed to use instead of a sword).

    And of course, she totally acts brain-damaged, and as much as we can love brain-damaged characters, they do get wearisome (Jillian's is that worst kind of brain damage, the kind that doesn't involve any limitation on her raw ability to cause chaos). I don't mind her as a mashup character-shaped macguffin, I even find her somewhat interesting as an obstacle character for the protagonists, but I have to admit that if she were a real person in my life, I'd do a LOT of shouting at her.

    I think that if Jillian were more willing to face the fact that she has mental limitations and accept advice from others (even from the wrong others), she would seem a lot more tolerable. But then she wouldn't be Jillian, and the upcoming plot point (which has to happen eventually) where she's forced to confront her incapacity wouldn't be very interesting.

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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:05 pm 
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    Because she was written poorly and without much depth, within the first 15 pages of the comic, which gives us a bad impression of her. In those pages she looks like some sort of wild woman who doesn't use strategy, and keeps surviving by what looks like luck. That is the impression people have of her. First impressions are important and after that confirmation bias stays in place. We biased in think of Jillian a certain way and then all those characters showing admiration her. They have a different opinion of Jillian then us readers do. This is jarring, and ruins the immersion of the comic. It makes the other characters look stupid and that they don't know what they are talking about.

    But carefull inspection shows that Jillian is not as wild or dumb as she appears. Quite the opposite actually. In strip 12 for instance, http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%201/12, it looks like she stupidly attacked a set of dwagons well beyond her ability, despite being told not to do so by Ansom. Then she gets captured. But a detail that is easy to miss is that in strip 24 http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+1/24 it is mentioned that Stanley sent those Dwagons after her. And he seemed to do it specifically because she new wanda, and as a present for her. Then in strip 26 http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+1/26 we learn that Stanley new all about Webinars group. So which means that he would have known about Jillian the moment she flew within range of the trilink. She would have got captured whether she did the attacks of opportunity or not. To avoid capture, she should have not gone scouting at all, a mistake Ansom made as well.

    So she had a disagreement with Ansom, who probably just did not fully understand her skillset and was overreacting. She strategically, hit some targets of opportunity, while losing hardly any Orly's if any at all. At end of turn she hid is some trees, where I trust her ability to hide even from Lookamancy. But Stanley new she was there all along, due to the super capabilities of the tri-link, and sent some dwagons to capture her as a present for Wanda. She then prepares to go down fighting, as she tries to take out as many as possible. And later she saves Ansom from the donut of doom, and is instrumental in the battle in the pass.

    But I too thought she was just some wild woman who couldn't think, which made other characters reactions to her jarring. That was until a forum discussion helped me realize the truth about that dwagon scene. And after looking between the lines about her, I now see her as a strategically and tactically smart person, who ultimately believes in freedom, but keeps getting beaten by extremely unlikely coincidences, probably in large part because her refusal to join up with Wanda keeps leaving her against Fate. Events concerning the fall of FAQ had her stop caring about things, and lose her faith in people. But Don King saw her potential, and made her start caring again. She recently got beaten down again, by another set of unlikely coincidences, but stays positive and is still fighting. Her fight for freedom now seems inspiring.

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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:48 pm 
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    If you've read the posts complaining about Jillian you know exactly why they don't like her, both because many people are not shy about telling you why Jillian sucks, and because unqualified Jillian bashing is jumped on both by people tired of the subject and people fond of Jillian.

    *sad jazz hands*

    ta daa!

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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:57 pm 
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    Sir Dr D wrote:
    But I too thought she was just some wild woman who couldn't think, which made other characters reactions to her jarring. That was until a forum discussion helped me realize the truth about that dwagon scene.

    "I too, used to be an ignorant idiot, before I saw the truth. You could become enlightened like me if you forum conversation with me enough."

    Quote:
    And after looking between the lines about her, I now see her as a strategically and tactically smart person, who ultimately believes in freedom, but keeps getting beaten by extremely unlikely coincidences, probably in large part because her refusal to join up with Wanda keeps leaving her against Fate.

    Or just after reading the actual lines from Duncan and Tremendous-man. Who realize how amazeballs she is. Very much an informed ability character at this point.

    Quote:
    But Don King saw her potential, and made her start caring again.

    /Made her more of the royalist bigot King Slately was.

    Quote:
    She recently got beaten down again, by another set of unlikely coincidences

    By Fate. She's been sucker punched by Fate again because she hates Fate and fights it. Which I respect, but hate to watch. Because I don't care if Fate wins or loses. Fate needs personification, real intent, a face, before I can invest in it's destruction as a goal.

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     Post Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:14 am 
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    focused wrote:
    If you've read the posts complaining about Jillian you know exactly why they don't like her, both because many people are not shy about telling you why Jillian sucks, and because unqualified Jillian bashing is jumped on both by people tired of the subject and people fond of Jillian.

    *sad jazz hands*

    ta daa!

    Actually, I haven't read any posts that actually complained about any specifics. They have mostly been on the lines of, "ugh, another Jillian story." It's like it was a private joke between people who had participated in the forums for a while. No big deal if you don't want to contribute.

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     Post Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:18 am 
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    Chiu ChunLing wrote:
    I think that if Jillian were more willing to face the fact that she has mental limitations and accept advice from others (even from the wrong others), she would seem a lot more tolerable. But then she wouldn't be Jillian, and the upcoming plot point (which has to happen eventually) where she's forced to confront her incapacity wouldn't be very interesting.

    Interesting. Does she know she has mental limitations? I was under the impression that she's pretty oblivious now to what was done during the DOAL, other than the obvious, the treatment for her addiction.

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     Post Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:47 am 
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    Merilynne wrote:
    Chiu ChunLing wrote:
    I think that if Jillian were more willing to face the fact that she has mental limitations and accept advice from others (even from the wrong others), she would seem a lot more tolerable. But then she wouldn't be Jillian, and the upcoming plot point (which has to happen eventually) where she's forced to confront her incapacity wouldn't be very interesting.

    Interesting. Does she know she has mental limitations? I was under the impression that she's pretty oblivious now to what was done during the DOAL, other than the obvious, the treatment for her addiction.

    When it comes to DOAL, it has been implied she has almost completely recovered from that. Any character flaw Jillian may have cannot be pinned on that.

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     Post Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:48 am 
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    Merilynne wrote:
    Interesting. Does she know she has mental limitations?

    Doesn't seem like it.
    She gets literal headaches when thinking about Charlie:
    http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/213
    But doesn't give any indication of knowing why.

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     Post Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:28 am 
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    Jillian has a sensitivity about mind control, and she has enough evidence to realize that a lot of the weirdness in her life is something to do with Charlie...but she actively avoids knowing it.

    Which is a real thing that people do, and I feel like Rob does a great job portraying it.

    The thing is, Jillian has a brain, but she doesn't like to think. If an intuition doesn't leap ready made onto the stage, she doesn't go digging for it. That makes her the most frustrating kind of person to a lot of people, the intellectually lazy gifted child. I really don't mind them anymore than people who really can't think well but imagine they can, but I do get why people hate them.

    But if not for her clear centrality to the story, she wouldn't get the same degree of hate. The thing is, she's kinda well disguised for a macguffin characters, she has all the superficial qualities of someone who affects the plot by her own conscious intention, she doesn't seem helpless and dependent...but she totally is.

    Of course, I've always extended her a lot of latitude as Wanda's love interest. Doesn't mean I didn't think she was Ms. Wrong, just that I never was at a loss to figure why she was in the story at all. But for a while a lot of people were.

    At this point, the dispute has matured a bit and lost most of the elements of "why is she in the story at all?" and focused more on "what exact role is she playing here?" Which is still a sharply divided debate, as any Jillian thread soon illustrates. But at least it is about how we should interpret her rather than whether she should be in the story at all.

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     Post Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:39 am 
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    Sir Dr D wrote:
    Merilynne wrote:
    Chiu ChunLing wrote:
    I think that if Jillian were more willing to face the fact that she has mental limitations and accept advice from others (even from the wrong others), she would seem a lot more tolerable. But then she wouldn't be Jillian, and the upcoming plot point (which has to happen eventually) where she's forced to confront her incapacity wouldn't be very interesting.

    Interesting. Does she know she has mental limitations? I was under the impression that she's pretty oblivious now to what was done during the DOAL, other than the obvious, the treatment for her addiction.

    When it comes to DOAL, it has been implied she has almost completely recovered from that. Any character flaw Jillian may have cannot be pinned on that.


    And that's what makes it so insidious. It looks like she has recovered from it. Superficially, to everyone who didn't know her deep inside before DOAL, it looks like she is ok. Yet, something important is missing and it can be seen only in thinkspace. And that something is probably Duty. Or Fate. My pet theory is that it was Jillian who was Fated to attune to the Hammer and Charlie removed that Fate. Stanley was second choice.

    Chiu ChunLing wrote:
    Jillian has a sensitivity about mind control, and she has enough evidence to realize that a lot of the weirdness in her life is something to do with Charlie...but she actively avoids knowing it.

    Which is a real thing that people do, and I feel like Rob does a great job portraying it.

    The thing is, Jillian has a brain, but she doesn't like to think. If an intuition doesn't leap ready made onto the stage, she doesn't go digging for it. That makes her the most frustrating kind of person to a lot of people, the intellectually lazy gifted child. I really don't mind them anymore than people who really can't think well but imagine they can, but I do get why people hate them.

    But if not for her clear centrality to the story, she wouldn't get the same degree of hate. The thing is, she's kinda well disguised for a macguffin characters, she has all the superficial qualities of someone who affects the plot by her own conscious intention, she doesn't seem helpless and dependent...but she totally is.

    Of course, I've always extended her a lot of latitude as Wanda's love interest. Doesn't mean I didn't think she was Ms. Wrong, just that I never was at a loss to figure why she was in the story at all. But for a while a lot of people were.

    At this point, the dispute has matured a bit and lost most of the elements of "why is she in the story at all?" and focused more on "what exact role is she playing here?" Which is still a sharply divided debate, as any Jillian thread soon illustrates. But at least it is about how we should interpret her rather than whether she should be in the story at all.


    Jillian doesn't want to think about it because it hurts when she tries. She is the focal point of many interests, a small country walking in the shadow of giants and trying not to step on any toes. Fate gives a lot to her, fate taketh away. And any good work she does, turns to dust, under no control of her own.

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     Post Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:49 am 
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    Actually JILLIAN sue is the one character who has probably more resources invested on, and that we as users still are at a loss of what does rob intends to do with her. which is a huge failure for ANY writer especially since it took YEARS to get to the point we are at the story.

    For a ton of people that didn't like OOTS miko (I'm not one of them), the author decided to kill her and remove it from the plot because she "flopped" hard, yet for those people that saw jillian as yet another miko from oots we are seeing that he decided to keep her in instead of ditch it for years.

    Yes, she functions in story as a foil to the protagonist plans, and maybe in the book format it ain't as sufferable, but from most users point of view. (recall only 2 updates a week) you have action STOPPED litterally from months just to view jillian doing jillian things without advancing the plot. (its jillian issues all around) and in those years the only thing we EVER got from her viewpoint is that she is angry at everything, that she was brainraped by a healomancer (but this only on book 0 which never advanced) and now that she got backstabbed.

    Its that something that should make us actually CARE for her? no, most units on erfworld usually gets WAY worse treatment than miss Jilliansue. Recall most units are actually FORCED to do things by their rules all the time, jillian only problems is that she doesn't do what fate wants her to do but then she is still protected by the same fate that stops people from killing her due to her mistakes.

    Getting backstabbed by allies? on this world is the coin of trade constantly. And its really stupid for albert and her to get angry to vinny for that. they should know PERFECTLY well that the units should do what their rulers told them to do, even if they have some freedom compared to stabbers. More so since they know perfectly well that not doing what the ruler wants can get you instadisbanded. (better so than seeing the unit go barbarian and as a foe) which is surprisingly not happening way more often on the story.

    Anyway, I think the problem has way more to do with mr.balder shooting himself in the foot multiple times when he envisioned the story than jillian, at this point. Notice that in all these years we haven't seen units "Stats" anymore as we used to do, he had a ton of caster types yet we haven't seem them portrayed (mostly because he probably didn't know what to do with them or even had them designed) the world RULES are sketchy at best, the Thinkamancers keeps getting more and more powers instead of limits and except for this year we haven't seen what a necromancer can do apart of raising shitty minions that "decay" compared to stuffamancer minions which are permanent.

    and also, each book we advance way less turns than the previous one, more so since the third book got split into 3-4 and that means the third one probably is just 1 huge turn that hasn't finished yet if I recall it good.

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     Post Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:47 am 
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    My problem with Jillian is that she's always been near-sighted. Even back in Book 0, she could be completely crumpled if anybody ever asked her, "And, then, what?" But, nobody ever does.

    She's got so much plot armor, she can't even move anymore, unless the plot of the story requires her to already be somewhere. There's no planning for her, ever. She just shows up, does something for Charlie and then dips out. I don't think it's bad writing, necessarily. I've enjoyed (almost) every bit of the comic. It's just frustrating that, whenever I see a Megalogwiff, the plot is about to get booped to hell and back.

    Also, her hatred for Stanley is her only driving force and it's so one-dimensional. It's just hate, hate, hate, but if she'd stop for two turns and build up her side, like the other characters that sacrificed their treasuries for her suggested, she'd be in a position to actually wound Stanley.
    I mean, she has Marie right there, with all the answers she needs and all she has to do is listen to somebody for a change, but instead, she throws Marie into the dungeon. What did that solve? How did that further the plot?

    Spoiler: show
    Actually, the only part of the comic that I didn't like was a Jillian thing,
    too. It was in that Book 0 page where we find out why her sword is called Three-edged. It seems like a weird inclusion, for people who needed inspiration for their deviantart. It just... I dunno. I think Rob was trying to write a strong female character, but she's completely ruled by her sex drive and her emotions, which is kinda antithetic.
    I get that she's good at those things, but she is always in a position where she could have a conversation with somebody and the reader could get a ton of mind-blowing, world-building exposition, but she just doesn't care about anybody. And, all the best characters (Jack, Wanda, Ansom, even) devote themselves to her.

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     Post Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:54 am 
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    Merilynne wrote:
    focused wrote:
    If you've read the posts complaining about Jillian you know exactly why they don't like her, both because many people are not shy about telling you why Jillian sucks, and because unqualified Jillian bashing is jumped on both by people tired of the subject and people fond of Jillian.

    *sad jazz hands*

    ta daa!

    Actually, I haven't read any posts that actually complained about any specifics. They have mostly been on the lines of, "ugh, another Jillian story." It's like it was a private joke between people who had participated in the forums for a while. No big deal if you don't want to contribute.



    I'll quote my own post, literally right above yours, in the thread you started: "By Fate. She's been sucker punched by Fate again because she hates Fate and fights it. Which I respect, but hate to watch. Because I don't care if Fate wins or loses. Fate needs personification, real intent, a face, before I can invest in it's destruction as a goal."

    tldr, Fate is boring and frustrating and I don't care about it. Jillian is Fate's biggest tool, therefore it's alternatively boring or frustrating to see what happens to her.

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     Post Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:37 am 
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    focused wrote:


    I'll quote my own post, literally right above yours, in the thread you started: "By Fate. She's been sucker punched by Fate again because she hates Fate and fights it. Which I respect, but hate to watch. Because I don't care if Fate wins or loses. Fate needs personification, real intent, a face, before I can invest in it's destruction as a goal."

    tldr, Fate is boring and frustrating and I don't care about it. Jillian is Fate's biggest tool, therefore it's alternatively boring or frustrating to see what happens to her.



    And this is a statement, I can respect. I myself like fate in the story. It is an interesting mystery to solve. But I do see the argument to it having gone on long enough without enough information on it. And though I do believe that people see Jillians involvement with Fate backwards (she is not an incompetent who keeps getting rescued by Fate, she is someone who is highly competent who keeps getting messed up by it), I do believe we can agree to the following:

    We just don't get to see her in normal situations. It is hard to judge her abilities, when not only is Fate so much heavily invested in her storyline, but she is a lone person without even a caster of her own, who has to fight Arkentools and linkups. And there is also not enough updates that show her thought process, so we can relate to her as a person.We mainly see her in action sequences where we don't know enough of the rules to fully access the situation.

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     Post Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:54 pm 
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    Burley wrote:
    Spoiler: show
    Actually, the only part of the comic that I didn't like was a Jillian thing,
    too. It was in that Book 0 page where we find out why her sword is called Three-edged. It seems like a weird inclusion, for people who needed inspiration for their deviantart. It just... I dunno. I think Rob was trying to write a strong female character, but she's completely ruled by her sex drive and her emotions, which is kinda antithetic.

    'Understanding is a three edged sword.' - Ambassador Kosh, Babylon 5.

    A saying that seems to refer to every story having three sides (your side, their side and the truth) fit kind of well with getting the backstory of an antagonist/whatever Jillian is supposed to be.

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     Post Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:29 pm 
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    Vendanna wrote:
    For a ton of people that didn't like OOTS miko (I'm not one of them), the author decided to kill her and remove it from the plot because she "flopped" hard, yet for those people that saw jillian as yet another miko from oots we are seeing that he decided to keep her in instead of ditch it for years.
    I was under the impression that Miko was far more popular than the author of OOTS intended, certainly she was my favorite character. From what I gathered, Miko was an epic case of "Strawman has a point". She was supposed to be deeply unsympathetic...but she was deep, and thus the only character in OOTS that seemed more complex than a collage of cardboard cutout cliches.

    Anyway, the rest of that is a reasonably good explanation of why people don't like Jillian, even if it's more "flavorful" than my wording. My perspective is that Jillian functions as "The Load" for several important characters, and this leads to her being perceived as "The Scrappy", even though she isn't supposed to be on the protagonists' side. Which is why depowering Jillian isn't the answer, she's supposed to function narratively as one of the 'bad guys' (and a particularly bothersome one) right up till the point when she Heel-Face turns.

    Ultimately, the problem is that Jillian isn't a fully developed character, and her place in the story doesn't depend on how the audience feels about her as a person. She's a macguffin...and it hasn't been adequately explained why everyone wants her.

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     Post Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:25 pm 
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    Chiu ChunLing wrote:
    Ultimately, the problem is that Jillian isn't a fully developed character, and her place in the story doesn't depend on how the audience feels about her as a person. She's a macguffin...and it hasn't been adequately explained why everyone wants her.


    I agree with all of what you said above, but on the quoted point... I don't think that fully developing her now will solve anything anymore, people have been feed up on the character now by more than 10 years? this ain't the OOTS monster in the darkness reveal or Varsuviuus gender question. At this time, I think people will cheer way more on seeing her die and depop at dawn than seeing she "cured" of the brainwash, since that would mean you would have to see way more of jillian to "see" the changes.

    The Mcguffin on OOTS works, because mostly is something it was told that we should care about, its pivotal to the story yet its done in an non intrusive manner, heck those gates at most only show 2-3 strips before going kaboooooom (tm), and even thou we already are hinted how the story will unfold (we know Roy is going to kick Xykon bony ass) people want to see how it plays out.

    On erfworld? we don't know what's the ending plan for Rob. Stop all wars? that's iffy at best (especially since on our realworld its not possible to stop wars to happening due conflict of interest between two or more parties) so the only way to STOP all wars reallistically is to wipe the entirety of life on the planet.

    Now, something I just tought while writing this, is that Most people on OOTS also loathe Eugene (Roy's ghost dad) since he obviously is playing a foil to Roy whenever we seem him interact, (mostly they cringe with his Lawful good behaviour) Yet I surmiss that its only because we have only seen him interacting with Roy.

    While I don't know what Burlew thinks about the character in question. but as how I see him, the character is lawful on how he behaves (he is always spitting roy in order to make him take the choices he should be taking) and good (even if some chaotic and evil actions may be done in the process it doesn't change the alignement, he is actually trying to help as he can in stopping the world to be undone). Doubly so as the character as illusionist is accustomed to hide the truth of his actions and as his affinity is divinations he would know what he should do in advance to make ends meet.

    Anyhow, before going off-topic on that. Let's look what happened with other "not so fleshed out characters." that where antagonists, Vinny and Ansom started almost on the same point as Jilliansue, yet both Vinny and Ansom grow on the people that read the comic. Transilvito was also an antagonist yet the mafia and loyalty was interesting motiff. and their secondary characters are still way more interesting that Jillian.

    Vanna and jojo are antagonists that I like, for their portrayal. Thou I feel its somewhat sad that it seems that nowadays we only see "caster" this and "caster" that. There have been no Parson Rival on the battlefield (mostly because Jillian has NEVER been near parson due to plot reasons and because she ain't a rival)

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     Post Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:39 pm 
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    This user is a Tool! This user was a Tool before it was cool This user has been published! Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Armored Dwagon Monthly Winner Has collected at least one unit Here for the 10th Anniversary Shiny Red Star Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter
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    Sir Dr D wrote:
    focused wrote:


    I'll quote my own post, literally right above yours, in the thread you started: "By Fate. She's been sucker punched by Fate again because she hates Fate and fights it. Which I respect, but hate to watch. Because I don't care if Fate wins or loses. Fate needs personification, real intent, a face, before I can invest in it's destruction as a goal."

    tldr, Fate is boring and frustrating and I don't care about it. Jillian is Fate's biggest tool, therefore it's alternatively boring or frustrating to see what happens to her.



    And this is a statement, I can respect. I myself like fate in the story. It is an interesting mystery to solve. But I do see the argument to it having gone on long enough without enough information on it. And though I do believe that people see Jillians involvement with Fate backwards (she is not an incompetent who keeps getting rescued by Fate, she is someone who is highly competent who keeps getting messed up by it), I do believe we can agree to the following:

    We just don't get to see her in normal situations. It is hard to judge her abilities, when not only is Fate so much heavily invested in her storyline, but she is a lone person without even a caster of her own, who has to fight Arkentools and linkups. And there is also not enough updates that show her thought process, so we can relate to her as a person.We mainly see her in action sequences where we don't know enough of the rules to fully access the situation.


    We see what a flying ace good leader warlord would look like in Erfworld without the help of Tools and Casters... and we're underwhelmed. It messes with our Erfworld power fantasy. You would like to imagine being Stanley, Hamster, Charley or even Wanda. Maggie is cool, Lilith is cool, Sizemore is cool... Out of all the main characters, Jillian is the only one that doesn't have literal magic at her side.

    She hits people and things with her sword. That is her purpose in life. She is an expert in hit and run with heavy fliers tactics... but they do not work so good any more, because of combination of Arkenhammer, dwagons and Hamster. Or Charlie and archons.

    When you imagine "Who would I be if I popped in Erfworld?" you think a flier, magic user or tool wielder(Hamster included). You don't think you would be the Wrigley or Georgia or some of hundreds of jetstone infantry. Jillian doesn't resonate with anyone's power or sexual fantasy. So, she gets hated.

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