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 Post subject: GK's new floorplan
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:17 pm 
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I'm somewhat confused about the new layout of GK.

In the old city, there was a gateless wall that surrounded a large courtyard. On what side was a large tower.

Now, there is a wall surrounding a lake of lava and courtyard, with a large tower on one side and a strong gatehouse on the wall. My questions are:

1. What, if anything, seperates the lava and courtyard?
2. Where is the gate in realtion to the lava?
3. Are land units able to leave through the gate? How do they do so while avoiding the lava?

Thanks,
Eph

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     Post subject: Re: GK's new floorplan
     Post Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:17 pm 
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    Specifics are hard to come by, but by all accounts land units can now exit via the new gate. The Courtyard occupies the same space it did before, but as there are now lots of great big holes and piles of rubble, much less of it is actually real, in-use "Courtyard." A certain, unknown amount of it is now occupied by the lava lake, which is probably only separated from the rest of the courtyard by a small lip of volcanic rock.

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     Post subject: Re: GK's new floorplan
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:30 am 
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    No holes and piles of rubble. Whole city was re-Popped, remember?

    I would presume that the lake of Lava is in the center of the city; a large space to one side would provide a useful Courtyard. Defensive bonusses from the Lake could come from a bridge across it (limiting access to the Tower for attackers that breach the outer walls at the Gate), or by having a road wind AROUND the Lake, just inside the Wall, to the courtyard.

    Of course, if it were ME planning the City? I'd've put the Tower on an island of rock, right in the middle of the Lake. Courtyard hard up against the Gate, connected to the Tower by a bridge or narrow causeway of rock. That way, the Tower element of the city Garrison would retain the terrain bonus of the Lake, in the event the Walls were taken by the enemy.

    It strikes me, too, that the old plethora of exits from the Dungeon level, to the outside of the city, should be worth a minor bonus too - due to being able to insert troop Stacks behind any beseiging forces.

    But then, I don't know if Erfworld has any rules for "lines of supply". What happens to a Unit, or Stack, that is surrounded by enemy Units/Stacks for multiple turns? Does it have to be able to trace an uncontested path back to a city on, or allied to, it's Side in order to be considered "in supply" ...? And, if a Unit or Stack can ever be "out of supply" ... what does that do, exactly? Simply apply a penalty to it? Prevent or lessen daily Healing? Perhaps even disband it, eventually?

    I'm also surprised Erfworld doesn't seem to have any rules for "Units in Support" - the idea that, at least on the defense (and logically, on teh attack), a Unit or Stack should get a defensive bonus based on how many allied or same-Side units are in the same Hex, and/or in adjacent Hexes. Even if it's just "+1 for supporting units, or +2 for supporting units in same hex", without reference to how MANY such supporting Units there are ... that's another bonus to pile on, right?

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     Post subject: Re: GK's new floorplan
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:41 am 
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    I'd forgotten the rubble was cleaned up.

    "Half the city walls" extend around the lake, giving the impression that it's on one side. The fact that only fliers can cross and even they cannot land would suggest there is no bridge.

    Seemingly, if you circle around the outer walls, you get Lake, Garrison, Gate, Lake again...

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     Post subject: Re: GK's new floorplan
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:19 pm 
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    Hmm. Good catch, IHN.

    So it seems we have a half-and-half city (it'd be amusign it if were Yin/Yang shaped), where half the City is "lake of fiery lava", and half the city is "courtyard, gate, and tower". The Lava provides an impenetrable defense along one entire arc of the Garrison, reducing the avenues of attack to the othr ... two-thirds to three-quarters of the Garrison's own perimeter. About half the perimeter of the City itself.

    ...

    Still suboptimal. Given that configuration of land, I'd've put the Tower right on the edge of the Lake, and the Wall only around the Garrison, with said Tower sitting happily along that Wall. The lake-of-fiery-doom would remain unwalled ... after all, what's going to try and TAKE that area?

    ...

    An idea would be to use the Dungeon level to tap that molten lava. How does a MOAT of lava sound, to you? Especially one that is empty until AFTER the enemy has a thousand or so units inside it, starting to attack the Wall? :twisted: Also, catapults flinging great globs of the stuff. Pipes carrying it along the Wall, to use like boiling oil. :geek:

    And, um, a nice "central heating" system for the whole City, during the Winter season? :D

    ...

    (In case you couldn't tell ... aside from the job at Kinko's, I can very much identify with Parson ... heh!)

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     Post subject: Re: GK's new floorplan
     Post Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:10 am 
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    IIRC, the lake of lava is also physically lower than the half of the city that's still usable terrain. And if the scene of the RCC reacting to its imminent demise is anything to go by, the lava lake is on the side of the mountain that used to have the road leading to the top. So the original path to the caldera is probably unusable.

    Furthermore, assuming that the Tower of Efdup is in the same location it was originally, it might very well be at the edge of the cliff leading down to the lava lake, thus making the garrison nigh-unreachable from that side.

    For some reason I can't help but get a vague Dorf Fortress vibe from a lava lake. As in, I feel like they should be busily popping magma smelters, forges and furnaces in convenient spots inside the mountain and then channeling in lava as needed. Not to mention having a Boatmurdered-style "fuck the world" lever.

    Also, given that we know from Jillian's FAQ^2 that farms exist in Erfworld as a way of generating money, do you think that the eruption of Gobwin Knob increased the productivity of nearby farming hexes?

    And one thing that I can definitely see GK doing to improve its defenses is building an additional set of gates on the new road up the mountain. If anyone here has read the Shannara series, think something like the system the Elves have to defend the approach to the plateau that Arborlon sits on top of.

    BTW, what happened to the Superfluous Elves who were in the RCC but who presumably hadn't been brought up for the actual assault? Or did nobody care about them?

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     Post subject: Re: GK's new floorplan
     Post Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 2:46 am 
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    The Sandman wrote:
    BTW, what happened to the Superfluous Elves who were in the RCC but who presumably hadn't been brought up for the actual assault? Or did nobody care about them?


    Ansom is arguing with the leader of the Superluous Elves here, as the RCC's forces are attempting to take the courtyard. This implies that the SE were involved in the assault. Also, they were originally planned to be a reserve force, and, considering all (or nearly all) of the Jetstone and Marbit forces were killed in the tunnels, the RCC likely moved their reserves into play.

    So, whether or not the Superfluous Elves ended up following orders and charged the courtyard (predictably) doesn't matter at all. They're just more burnt corpses in the mix.

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     Post subject: Re: GK's new floorplan
     Post Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:30 am 
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    The Sandman wrote:
    For some reason I can't help but get a vague Dorf Fortress vibe from a lava lake. As in, I feel like they should be busily popping magma smelters, forges and furnaces in convenient spots inside the mountain and then channeling in lava as needed. Not to mention having a Boatmurdered-style "fuck the world" lever.


    Huh, well, I guess that word really isn't off limits here, then. And I really wonder if Erfworld has Hidden Fun Stuff; you know, that might actually be where the Arkentools were originally found...

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    Last edited by Justyn on Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: GK's new floorplan
     Post Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:09 am 
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    The Sandman wrote:
    BTW, what happened to the Superfluous Elves who were in the RCC but who presumably hadn't been brought up for the actual assault? Or did nobody care about them?

    Why would you presume that? The plan was for them to hang back in reserve, but that plan was made when Ansom expected to easily roll over GK. Once things went bad, he would need to use his reserves.

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     Post subject: Re: GK's new floorplan
     Post Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 4:31 pm 
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    The Sandman wrote:
    Also, given that we know from Jillian's FAQ^2 that farms exist in Erfworld as a way of generating money, do you think that the eruption of Gobwin Knob increased the productivity of nearby farming hexes?

    Gamespeak-wise, I would say ... no.

    Or rather: the current Level of those Farms would have been decreased (damaged by the eruption), but the maximum Level of Farm allowed in those hexes might have been boosted by 1 or 2, yes. They would still need to be re-developed to that higher level.

    So: short-term loss of income, long-term gain in potential. Assuming Erfworld's economics rules are that complex and detailed, of course.

    Interesting side-note that I just thought of: since Sizemore was so impressed with changing a Terrain Type ... it seems Deforestation (turning Forest hexes into Grass or Open hexes) may be impossible on Erfworld. As would the building of Dams (turning non-hill, non-mountain river-valley hexes into Lake hexes). Desertification (shifting hexes towards Desert / Sand) probably doesn't occur either, nor would ice ages (shifting to Tundra or Ice hexes).

    Very interesting, that. Very.

    Quote:
    And one thing that I can definitely see GK doing to improve its defenses is building an additional set of gates on the new road up the mountain. If anyone here has read the Shannara series, think something like the system the Elves have to defend the approach to the plateau that Arborlon sits on top of.

    I'm not sure Erfworld's rules would allow for that. Rather, you woudl have to build - and garrison - a ring of Hexes completely around the entire city, so that to get intot he City, you have to get through the ring of fortifications around it. THAT, however, sounds awfully expensive ... and also leaves rebuildable fortifications for a besieging army to use AGAINST your own countr-attacks, once they DID reach the City proper.

    Quote:
    BTW [...] Superfluous Elves [...] did nobody care about them?

    Well, they are Superfluous, after all. :lol:

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     Post subject: Re: GK's new floorplan
     Post Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 5:45 pm 
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    Pax wrote:
    Interesting side-note that I just thought of: since Sizemore was so impressed with changing a Terrain Type ... it seems Deforestation (turning Forest hexes into Grass or Open hexes) may be impossible on Erfworld. As would the building of Dams (turning non-hill, non-mountain river-valley hexes into Lake hexes). Desertification (shifting hexes towards Desert / Sand) probably doesn't occur either, nor would ice ages (shifting to Tundra or Ice hexes).

    Very interesting, that. Very.


    That is interesting, but I think you need to refine your conclusion. Changing of terrain type by a caster would seem to be unprecedented. However, natural terrain change might exist. "Random Events" come to mind; Erfquake, Drought, Flood - these things might change random hexes on rare occasion. Building dams? I dunno, it would be a project for numerous units over time, so maybe.

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     Post subject: Re: GK's new floorplan
     Post Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:05 pm 
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    I suppose it depends if Erfworld has base terrain types and terrain modifiers. I'm thinking like Civilization here, where you can have Forest (modifier) on a Plains base square, or Grassland, or Tundra. And some modifiers can be stacked, like forests on hills on plains.

    There's limited evidence of this - you can tunnel through mountainous hexes, for example. It may just take time, schmuckers, and a special forestry unit to turn trees into schmuckers (like mining) and remove the forest modifier from the hex's base terrain type.

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     Post subject: Re: GK's new floorplan
     Post Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:03 pm 
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    SteveMB wrote:
    The Sandman wrote:
    BTW, what happened to the Superfluous Elves who were in the RCC but who presumably hadn't been brought up for the actual assault? Or did nobody care about them?

    Why would you presume that? The plan was for them to hang back in reserve, but that plan was made when Ansom expected to easily roll over GK. Once things went bad, he would need to use his reserves.


    If they were actually needed then they wouldn't be Superfluous now would they?

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     Post subject: Re: GK's new floorplan
     Post Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:14 pm 
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    Pax wrote:
    Quote:
    And one thing that I can definitely see GK doing to improve its defenses is building an additional set of gates on the new road up the mountain. If anyone here has read the Shannara series, think something like the system the Elves have to defend the approach to the plateau that Arborlon sits on top of.

    I'm not sure Erfworld's rules would allow for that. Rather, you would have to build - and garrison - a ring of Hexes completely around the entire city, so that to get into the City, you have to get through the ring of fortifications around it. THAT, however, sounds awfully expensive ... and also leaves rebuildable fortifications for a besieging army to use AGAINST your own counter-attacks, once they DID reach the City proper.


    Well, we know for a fact that GK 2.0 has Shmuckers to burn. And unless I'm really misinterpreting the implications of the visuals on the rules, I think that the bulk of the GK mountain counts as impassible terrain for creatures that don't either fly or have some theoretical ability that lets them climb mountains. The road has the only hexes of passable terrain between the base and the summit on the outside of the mountain. So you might only need to build fortifications across the road itself.

    As far as leaving fortifications for the enemy to build upon, I don't think we know enough of how the rules on how capturing fortifications work to be sure. Of course, every bit of money they spend on rebuilding fortifications that are still downhill from your artillery and potential lava traps is money they aren't spending on new units, or upkeep for their existing ones. And given how much of GK's wealth is going to be generated internally, it isn't going to be all that vulnerable to a traditional siege removing their ability to pay the upkeep of their troops. It pretty much requires an assault to take now, since it can probably pay to repop any troops you kill at the beginning of the next turn. And I don't think that you can pop units in the field. And if Wanda's there, she'll also be taking the opportunity to decrypt as many of your croaked soldiers as possible.

    tl;dr if Gobwin Knob 2.0 doesn't fall to treachery or incompetence then it probably won't fall period.

    Quote:
    Quote:
    BTW [...] Superfluous Elves [...] did nobody care about them?

    Well, they are Superfluous, after all. :lol:


    Precisely! :lol:

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     Post subject: Re: GK's new floorplan
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 2:26 pm 
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    The RCC used the road on the approach to GK, so it must have some value in terms of moving things. My guess is that it takes more move, probably significantly more move, to go through mountainous terrain than over a road. Thus, building a fortification on the road would give enemy forces the option of either taking the long, long, long way up the mountain, giving you more time to prepare for attack, or else try to storm the defenses on the road. Just building a wall around the rest of the mountain would keep most attackers out, as you can probably only squeeze so many units through a tower and over a wall in one turn, and the wall would take at least a turn or two to demolish with siege.

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     Post subject: Re: GK's new floorplan
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:10 pm 
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    Maldeus wrote:
    The RCC used the road on the approach to GK, so it must have some value in terms of moving things.

    Webinar: When our turn begins, we're going to take that road.... We need to cover some ground. Fast.

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     Post subject: Re: GK's new floorplan
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 4:48 pm 
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    Pax wrote:
    Interesting side-note that I just thought of: since Sizemore was so impressed with changing a Terrain Type ... it seems Deforestation (turning Forest hexes into Grass or Open hexes) may be impossible on Erfworld. As would the building of Dams (turning non-hill, non-mountain river-valley hexes into Lake hexes). Desertification (shifting hexes towards Desert / Sand) probably doesn't occur either, nor would ice ages (shifting to Tundra or Ice hexes).


    It would be funny if you build a dam, and the lake doesn't rise. Effectively, the water just continues to flow though the dam :).

    Ofc, it may not be possible to actually build stuff, and a dam isn't likely to be poppable, unless it was specifically intended.

    I wonder what would happen if you started throwing rocks into a river.

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     Post subject: Re: GK's new floorplan
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 5:58 pm 
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    Hmm...What would happen if you started throwing rocks in a river? What if things like changing terrain types are no more difficult than in our world, but because the Erfworlders are so used to having a game mechanic do things for them, none of them has ever tried it?

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     Post subject: Re: GK's new floorplan
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:08 pm 
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    Maldeus wrote:
    Hmm...What would happen if you started throwing rocks in a river? What if things like changing terrain types are no more difficult than in our world, but because the Erfworlders are so used to having a game mechanic do things for them, none of them has ever tried it?


    One way to implement it would be that the flow in the river remains constant, but the current density increases though every tiny hole in the rock dam, eventually splitting the rocks if needs be.

    Also, the lava lake seems to be constantly heated, so normal physics don't have to apply. It is unclear if it is even draining to the sea like a river.

    I wonder if rivers even have flow as we would understand it. They could just be bodies of water that are river shaped.

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     Post subject: Re: GK's new floorplan
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:16 pm 
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    This makes me want a map of Erfworld. Does the geography even make sense? I know I've played some turn-based computer games where the geography of the world map made absolutely no sense at all (sometimes because it's been randomly generated, other times because the game designers were too busy perfecting gameplay and improving graphics to make the game world follow all the ridiculously complex and intricate rules of science (jerks)). Actual battle between units takes place in real-time. Could a unit get swept away in the current of a river mid-battle, or even during travel? Are there any points where normally land-based units could ford a river? Does Erfworld have any kind of boat?

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