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 Post Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:09 pm 
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I'm just going to leave this here...
(shamelessly stolen from the Erfworld Facebook comments section - Thank you to Jesse David Wan!)

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     Post Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 7:45 pm 
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    MarbitChow wrote:
    I'm just going to leave this here...
    (shamelessly stolen from the Erfworld Facebook comments section - Thank you to Jesse David Wan!)


    As much as I think that needs to be read on some webcomic forums, I don't really think it's applicable here. See, Mr. Martin isn't taking donations to further the writing of his series. Rob and Co. are.

    That column might apply to those of us who aren't paying anything to read Erfworld, but I don't think it applies to Tools.

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     Post Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:40 pm 
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    CorrTerek wrote:
    As much as I think that needs to be read on some webcomic forums, I don't really think it's applicable here. See, Mr. Martin isn't taking donations to further the writing of his series. Rob and Co. are.
    That column might apply to those of us who aren't paying anything to read Erfworld, but I don't think it applies to Tools.

    Since Tool subscriptions build up store credit, there's a strong argument to be made that they aren't donations at all, but advances on expected goods (of which Erfworld Book 1 is probably the most anticipated).
    Gaiman's point still holds, though - it's art, and artists don't always produce quality work based on other people's schedule.
    If we want quality work, it will come at Rob's pace.

    Consider this, though: each page publish consists of approx. 4 rows of work. Rob could easily release each row, one at a time, and quadruple the update speed without any additional effort.
    Would that make anyone happy?

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     Post Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 10:02 pm 
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    MarbitChow wrote:
    CorrTerek wrote:
    As much as I think that needs to be read on some webcomic forums, I don't really think it's applicable here. See, Mr. Martin isn't taking donations to further the writing of his series. Rob and Co. are.
    That column might apply to those of us who aren't paying anything to read Erfworld, but I don't think it applies to Tools.

    Since Tool subscriptions build up store credit, there's a strong argument to be made that they aren't donations at all, but advances on expected goods (of which Erfworld Book 1 is probably the most anticipated).
    Gaiman's point still holds, though - it's art, and artists don't always produce quality work based on other people's schedule.
    If we want quality work, it will come at Rob's pace.


    I paid, and you can call it a donation, a pre-credit, clams, greenbacks, cheddar or anything you want. Those that did pay, of which you are not one, and have spoken up, are not pleased with what they have received for their support.


    MarbitChow wrote:
    Consider this, though: each page publish consists of approx. 4 rows of work. Rob could easily release each row, one at a time, and quadruple the update speed without any additional effort.
    Would that make anyone happy?


    Or maybe he could release the comics one pixel at a time every minute. That would be awesome!

    C'mon, be serious.

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     Post Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 4:56 pm 
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    Tensor wrote:
    I paid, and you can call it a donation, a pre-credit, clams, greenbacks, cheddar or anything you want. Those that did pay, of which you are not one, and have spoken up, are not pleased with what they have received for their support.

    If you wanted to complain about the value for the Tool subscription, I was under the impression that there was a Tool-only forum. I'm sure Rob has access to it.
    If you don't want to hear from us free-loaders, refrain from posting where the hoi polloi can access your enlightened prose.

    What you get for your support was explicitly spelled out: access to additional forums, Tool-only content, and credit towards the store.
    I'm sorry that you were confused about the nature of the transaction, although it seems pretty explicitly spelled out.

    I know that when it comes to creating content, the Holy Triangle applies:
    You can select from good, fast, and cheap. Pick two. Free falls into the 'cheap' category, as does $3/ month.

    Tensor wrote:
    Or maybe he could release the comics one pixel at a time every minute. That would be awesome!
    C'mon, be serious.


    I am serious. The 3-panel format is what a lot of comics that update frequently use.
    Split the page into 4 rows, release one row at a time, you now have four times the updates, with the same amount of content that most other comic websites provide.
    Granted, you've lowered the quality of the update, but you've increased the speed. See the Holy Triangle, above.

    Is this something you would honestly prefer? Or do you want the same quality we're getting now, only faster?
    If so, you may wish to contact Rob regarding becoming an actual investor.
    In order to make it a full time job for several years, you should plan on raising about $150,000 to cover salaries, legal fees, expenses, advertising, etc.
    Find 4 others, and you can knock your share down to $30,000. At that point, you will be in a position to tell Rob what to do, provided he agrees to take the money.

    Otherwise, if you're not happy with what you are receiving for your $3 a month, you might wish to consider canceling your subscription and reinvesting that money where it will server you better, such as a pack of Pokemon cards or a small Starbucks coffee.

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     Post Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:33 pm 
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    Marbit, you're missing lots of points, but those are all written in previous pages, so this post of mine will only humbly ask you to read the other pages, and even if you have, once more. Especially the one about "are tools getting what they pay for".

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    You know... at this point you boops aren't beating dead horses any more. You're making glue.

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     Post Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:28 pm 
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    zilfallon wrote:
    Marbit, you're missing lots of points, but those are all written in previous pages, so this post of mine will only humbly ask you to read the other pages, and even if you have, once more. Especially the one about "are tools getting what they pay for".
    Well, I stand by the argument that Tools are getting exactly what they pay for. The whole store credit deal sounds pretty nice to me. I mean, become a Tool, let store credit accumulate for 20 months, buy the set of Dwagons. And get all these cool bonus features in the meantime. I'll have to try to remember to become a Tool at some point.

    But I have pre-ordered a copy of Book 2, Issue 1, so I resent the implication that I'm not paying for this comic. (Edited to separate this from the above text--It's a response to Tensor's earlier comment that those who have paid are feeling that they aren't getting their money's worth. That would be:
    Tensor wrote:
    I paid, and you can call it a donation, a pre-credit, clams, greenbacks, cheddar or anything you want. Those that did pay, of which you are not one, and have spoken up, are not pleased with what they have received for their support.

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     Post Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:05 pm 
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    zilfallon wrote:
    Marbit, you're missing lots of points, but those are all written in previous pages, so this post of mine will only humbly ask you to read the other pages, and even if you have, once more. Especially the one about "are tools getting what they pay for".

    I've read all the points. I just think they're crap.

    Average pay for a typical graphic designer/graphic artist is $40-$60 an hour. Personally, I think Xin's work is far above 'typical'.
    20 Tool subscribers combined would pay for one hour's worth of Xin's work, maybe. How many hours go into making each page?
    How many Tools are there currently? 1,000? 5,000? 10,000? Or is it more like a few hundred?

    I can totally understand wanting more of Erfworld, as fast as possible. I share that desire.
    But if you think that your $3/month gives you any sense of entitlement other than to what features were clearly spelled out as benefits of Tool membership, you're delusional.

    If you want faster updates, establish a corporation, pay Rob's & Xin's salaries, and set their deadlines.
    If, on the other hand, you view this as a work of art in progress that is worth supporting, offer your DONATIONS.
    If you're frustrated about update speeds and just want to vent, feel free to post on the forums.

    But if you honestly believe that Rob is sitting back, counting your money and laughing, instead of working as hard and fast as possible to tell this story EXACTLY RIGHT THE FIRST TIME (since, unlike most authors, he doesn't really have the luxury of edits and rewrites since he's posting them as he goes along), then feel free to cancel your subscription and move on with your life. Even better, tell your own story. Contribute something to the world, instead of complaining that because you've forked over barely enough for a Big Mac, you feel you've got the right to tell the author he's not satisfying your craving for quality niche entertainment quickly enough.

    Meanwhile, if I can't read a new Erfworld update, I'll engage in one of my other hobbies, such as arguing with complete strangers on the Internet.

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     Post Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:43 pm 
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    MarbitChow wrote:
    I've read all the points. I just think they're crap.


    Am I to assume, then, that you feel Rob and Xin (and Jamie, let's not leave him out of this) wouldn't be doing anything wrong if they simply gave up on Erfworld and moved on to something else? That they wouldn't owe anything to the people who donated money in the hopes of supporting Erfworld?

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     Post Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:13 pm 
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    CorrTerek wrote:
    Am I to assume, then, that you feel Rob and Xin (and Jamie, let's not leave him out of this) wouldn't be doing anything wrong if they simply gave up on Erfworld and moved on to something else? That they wouldn't owe anything to the people who donated money in the hopes of supporting Erfworld?
    Provided that they did not continue to collect money from you after they announced the end of Erfworld, you are correct, they would be doing nothing unethical, immoral, or wrong.
    "It's the highest term of respect, of course. We reserve it for readers and fans of Erfworld who pledge their support to the comic and the website, so that we can continue making more Erfworld."
    If they cancel the comic, or you feel the quality has slipped, you withdraw your support. If they continue to produce a comic that you feel is worth supporting, you continue to offer your $3 each month. It's that simple.

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     Post Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 2:29 am 
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    MarbitChow wrote:
    CorrTerek wrote:
    As much as I think that needs to be read on some webcomic forums, I don't really think it's applicable here. See, Mr. Martin isn't taking donations to further the writing of his series. Rob and Co. are.
    That column might apply to those of us who aren't paying anything to read Erfworld, but I don't think it applies to Tools.

    Since Tool subscriptions build up store credit, there's a strong argument to be made that they aren't donations at all, but advances on expected goods (of which Erfworld Book 1 is probably the most anticipated).
    Gaiman's point still holds, though - it's art, and artists don't always produce quality work based on other people's schedule.
    If we want quality work, it will come at Rob's pace.

    Consider this, though: each page publish consists of approx. 4 rows of work. Rob could easily release each row, one at a time, and quadruple the update speed without any additional effort.
    Would that make anyone happy?



    thats what Pete does for sluggy freelance most of the time .
    they do 4 panel daily strips take a break on saturday and then a big strip on sunday

    hell the weekdays aren't even colored that s joe sundays thing
    although the format has changed over the years
    at least we get daily fan service over there.

    i'd be fine with a every other day 4 panel update
    at least it would keep the interest going rather then reading this once a year and waiting for ever to get an update
    ..

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     Post Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:46 am 
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    <sigh> Look, in everything, there are just three basic factors. Fast, good, and cheap.

    If you want it fast and good, it won't be cheap.

    If you want it fast and cheap, it won't be good.

    If you want it good and cheap, it won't be fast.

    Choose two. And no, you can't choose all three. No universe we know of works like that.

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     Post Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:21 am 
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    MarbitChow wrote:
    Provided that they did not continue to collect money from you after they announced the end of Erfworld, you are correct, they would be doing nothing unethical, immoral, or wrong.


    So, then, that store credit that the Tools paid for, which would then be worthless, means nothing. What about the people who preordered Book 2, which would then not be forthcoming? They aren't owed anything?

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     Post Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:36 am 
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    CorrTerek wrote:
    So, then, that store credit that the Tools paid for, which would then be worthless, means nothing. What about the people who preordered Book 2, which would then not be forthcoming? They aren't owed anything?

    Tool membership was a pledge of sponsorship. It says so clearly. In exchange for this pledge, you get store credit.
    (Just like when you pledge $200 to PBS, you get a tote bag. The benefits for Tool pledges are much better.)

    If you order (or preorder) something from the store, you are entitled to the item you ordered, or a refund.
    If your purchase was made with store credit, you would be entitled to more store credit.
    If your purchase was made with cash directly, you would be entitled to getting your money back.

    The store and the comic are two different things; be careful not to confuse the two.
    If Rob stopped producing the comics, but left the store open, there would still be ways to redeem your store credit.
    If Rob closed the store, but kept producing the comics, people who pre-ordered from store would be entitled to a refund for items they did not receive.
    Unlike cash transactions, store credit has no cash value and is not transferable. If you have store credit to a store that goes out of business, that money is gone.
    This is true for both on-line and brick-and-mortar stores.

    When you pledge sponsorship, you are not owed anything. You are not making an investment. There should be no expectation of return. It's just a tip jar with benefits.
    You are tipping them for work already produced, and hoping that they will continue to produce work of similar quality. If you see enough evidence that that is not the case, stop tipping.

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     Post Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:49 am 
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    MarbitChow wrote:
    CorrTerek wrote:
    So, then, that store credit that the Tools paid for, which would then be worthless, means nothing. What about the people who preordered Book 2, which would then not be forthcoming? They aren't owed anything?

    Tool membership was a pledge of sponsorship. It says so clearly. In exchange for this pledge, you get store credit.
    (Just like when you pledge $200 to PBS, you get a tote bag. The benefits for Tool pledges are much better.)

    If you order (or preorder) something from the store, you are entitled to the item you ordered, or a refund.
    If your purchase was made with store credit, you would be entitled to more store credit.
    If your purchase was made with cash directly, you would be entitled to getting your money back.

    The store and the comic are two different things; be careful not to confuse the two.
    If Rob stopped producing the comics, but left the store open, there would still be ways to redeem your store credit.
    If Rob closed the store, but kept producing the comics, people who pre-ordered from store would be entitled to a refund for items they did not receive.
    Unlike cash transactions, store credit has no cash value and is not transferable. If you have store credit to a store that goes out of business, that money is gone.
    This is true for both on-line and brick-and-mortar stores.

    When you pledge sponsorship, you are not owed anything. You are not making an investment. There should be no expectation of return. It's just a tip jar with benefits.
    You are tipping them for work already produced, and hoping that they will continue to produce work of similar quality. If you see enough evidence that that is not the case, stop tipping.


    You cannot wrap up human interaction in a neat little bow and call it "logically complete." We are not robots, and this is not a perfect world. It is a matter of people and their feelings.

    People do not always tip solely because of "services rendered." Sophisticated people tip for that reason, and also because they plan on returning. Word will get around with the servers, and if you frequent a place, waiters will recognize you as a good tipper and provide a little extra for you. They will do this because they know that if they elevate their game, they will continue to see better-than-average tips from you.

    You are at least the third person to try and derail this thread from the topic, which is that the story is not moving, and there are those of us who have invested in this product and feel slighted. Yes, it is an investment no matter how many times you say it is not. I will repeat the quote from earlier in this thread, simply because it is brilliant, and bears repeating multiple times...

    raphfrk wrote:
    If you have to start quoting contract terms to your customers, then you are already in trouble.

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     Post Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:20 pm 
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    Tensor wrote:
    You cannot wrap up human interaction in a neat little bow and call it "logically complete." We are not robots, and this is not a perfect world. It is a matter of people and their feelings.

    People do not always tip solely because of "services rendered." Sophisticated people tip for that reason, and also because they plan on returning. Word will get around with the servers, and if you frequent a place, waiters will recognize you as a good tipper and provide a little extra for you. They will do this because they know that if they elevate their game, they will continue to see better-than-average tips from you.

    And, conversely, if you do not feel that you are getting the services you desire, you stop tipping and stop frequenting the establishment.

    Tensor wrote:
    You are at least the third person to try and derail this thread from the topic, which is that the story is not moving, and there are those of us who have invested in this product and feel slighted. Yes, it is an investment no matter how many times you say it is not. I will repeat the quote from earlier in this thread, simply because it is brilliant, and bears repeating multiple times...

    raphfrk wrote:
    If you have to start quoting contract terms to your customers, then you are already in trouble.

    Note that ROB never quoted terms of service. This thread consists of FANS discussing with OTHER FANS.
    You have invested time into this project, by enjoying it, and offering suggestions to improve it. I have invested time as well.
    You have DONATED money to this project, to help keep it going. I commend you for that.

    I can't do anything to change the speed of the updates, or the content when they occur.
    If you feel that those are not what you desire, I have no argument with you, and if this comic is no longer what you're looking for, I'd recommend that you cancel your membership.

    If you feel, however, that a $3/month donation entitles you to anything other than what was already explained, that's where I see a difference between your perception and my perception of reality.
    I can attempt to influence your perception. You can choose to accept or disregard it.

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     Post Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:46 pm 
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    MarbitChow wrote:
    Note that ROB never quoted terms of service. This thread consists of FANS discussing with OTHER FANS.


    That is true. And may I respectfully -- truly and earnestly, respectfully -- suggest that you as a non-Tool may actually be doing a disservice to the author by appearing to lecture Tools about how they ought to be feeling on this subject.

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     Post Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 3:04 pm 
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    Tensor wrote:
    You are at least the third person to try and derail this thread from the topic, which is that the story is not moving, and there are those of us who have invested in this product and feel slighted. Yes, it is an investment no matter how many times you say it is not. I will repeat the quote from earlier in this thread, simply because it is brilliant, and bears repeating multiple times...
    And how, pray tell, are we remotely off topic? I feel that the story is moving and that those of us who have invested in the product are getting our money's worth. If you want nothing more than simple agreement, take it to PM's. Don't expect me to shut up and sit down because you feel that my opinions are worthless. Or, appear to think that, at least.

    I agree that the updates have been slower that usual. I agree that the updates have been excruciatingly slow. However, I still find the comic entertaining enough to make up for that. While some would disagree, we are entitled to an opinion, unless we are... what was the word you used? Oh yes, "robots." If you expect me to simply accept what you say when I, personally, believe something different, then you are simply insane. And if you expect me to not voice my opinion to defend a comic that I like, you are, again, insane. I think that this defense is perfectly reasonable, given the topic of the thread.

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     Post Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 3:38 pm 
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    Ansan Gotti wrote:
    That is true. And may I respectfully -- truly and earnestly, respectfully -- suggest that you as a non-Tool may actually be doing a disservice to the author by appearing to lecture Tools about how they ought to be feeling on this subject.

    Some (many?) don't like the current direction of the story arc, and/or the speed by which it updates. I do not disagree with their right to feel that way.
    I do disagree with the perception that, as Tools, they are somehow being slighted if the comic does not proceed in the manner or speed in which they anticipated.

    Picture someone who makes a $25 dollar donation to PBS because they like to watch Dr. Who, then gets upset that PBS doesn't pick up the latest season of Dr. Who and demands a refund of their donation.
    Objectively, that person has no more say in the programming or development decisions than a non-paying viewer. I see a similar situation here.

    I doubt greatly, however, that any of my inane ramblings would have any real impact, and if (or, more hopefully when) updates increase and the plot advances, all of this ramblings will be forgotten (until the next inevitable lull in the plot, which would be required to set up the NEXT climax).

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     Post Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 3:55 pm 
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    As mentioned above, we're no robots. It is not possible for humans to act completely objective. People ARE being subjective in this matter and it is nothing wrong, since we, as human beings, have emotions which direct our actions, sometimes more than our logic. ( ALWAYS more than logic, in Jillian's case :D )

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    You know... at this point you boops aren't beating dead horses any more. You're making glue.

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