Forum    Members    Search    FAQ

Board index » Erfworld Things » Everything Else Erfworld




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 7 posts ] 
 
Author Message
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:30 pm 
User avatar
Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
Offline
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:24 am
Posts: 287
So. In the very first page of the very first book we see that the event which caused Parson to be summoned was the titans leaving behind an extra gem back when they created Erfworld which gave the marbits and extra stack, which broke the 23 spidew, which killed the CWL of GWK. But Parson's summoning was a response to Fate needing Charlie killed. So either Fate planned for Charlie to disobey its plans and then have to summon Parson as part of its plans (which is insane to me) OR fate went back and knocked that gem of the Titan's cape/made it so that gem had always fallen off the titan's cape. And the second feels more in line with how we've seen Fate work. It is very much reactive (ie. it doesn't seem to foresee you defy it until you've already planned to do it or done it), but it also reacts in a way where events happen to have already happened in a way to make a reaction to your defiance happen.

Which means I think that Retconjuration works like cheesy GMing and Fated units work like PCs at that GMs table: PCs have agency and can do whatever they want and anything they know about or have written down is canon... but everyone else is an NPC and Fate can move them around/spawn/despawn and do what it's wants with them. Similarly, everything the PCs don't know is fair game for Fate to say anything it wants about as long as it doesn't contradict canon knowledge. Since Charlie is fated, Fate can't go back and prevent him from surviving Olive (because he knows he didn't die) and it can't stop him from turning Claud and Ivan because Charlie knows how to do that... BUT Charlie doesn't know how a state 8 works so it can go "uhhh, no. They both immediately die. Because uh... state 8s man. They can croak at range. Crazy stuff." Then Fate can't stop him from blowing up the Great Mind temple (because he has schematics for it and knows how to use them) but since Charlie never saw the temple fall to confirm kills it can totally go "oooh, sorry, right before Tondy can pull the trigger she dies because uh... the great minds all shoved their brains into a single body that survived and now they're a super unit. Those state 8s man. They're CRAZY."

Then with Parson and the beam and the bracer it's him going "what are the chances of me casting this spell" and checking the book and seeing it's like... 99% but them going "uhh.... I'm gonna say the bracer says 0%..." in a very suspicious voice and Parson going "well I'm gonna try anyways" and Fate going "uh... uh... OH. Yeah. mmm... unfortunately the beam you were standing under..." "I was standing under a beam?" "you never asked if you weren't!" "ugh fine" "that beam was totally on fire this whole time and about to break. It falls and knocks you out." "Bullshit" "I tried to warn you. That's why it was 0%. You were standing under a beam that was gonna fall at any moment." "let me see those notes" "...No."

Or, perhaps the best example: Jillian and the ambush. It didn't matter which path she took. That's where the ambush would have been all along anyways, which means the units who launched that ambush didn't pick a spot ahead of time based on some strategic information. They retroactively would have just always have decided on whichever hex she decided on. It's a clear case of Marie going "I peaked on the DMs dice roll. You're gonna have a random encounter this turn" and her going "I choose to go a different way to avoid the encounter" and the GM going "HAHA! That's where the encounter was all along" "...Let me see those notes" "fuck you. roll initiative".

Basically, Retconjuration lets anything that theoretically COULD have happened, have actually happened, as long as it doesn't change the current events of the fated units from having worked out the way they have thus far. And Fate works exclusively through aggressive reconjuration. That's why Charlie's still alive and why he functions the way he functions. He's created an environment where he knows everything about everything in his tower so the GM can't do anything to him. The more rules and mechanics he can learn and the more character traits and plans he can figure out about the things and people around him, the less ammunition Fate has to attack him with because Fate can only retconjure things to work in a way that the PCs can't prove weren't going to happen anyways all along.

_________________
-IRL Thinkamancer/Mathamancer in training and full time Charlie apologist.

  • Tipped by 3 people!
  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:24 am 
    User avatar
    This user is a Tool! Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter E is for Erfworld Supporter Year of the Dwagon Supporter Mined 4 Erf Won Mine4erf for the Gobwins Won Mine4erf for the Marbits
    Offline
    Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:34 pm
    Posts: 383
    I don't think Retconjuration would explain all of Fate's workings. There definitely seems to be Luckamancy involved - see Artemis' fight versus Sylvia. We've got a clear example there where Artemis' stack gets unnaturally good luck to counterbalance all the "favors" Fate was doing for Sylvia.
    http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%202/147

    If it was purely Retconjuration there would be no inherent balance, the "evil DM" could just make up something unfairly tilted and say "That's just how the dice rolled, deal with it".

  • Tipped by 1 person!
  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:57 am 
    User avatar
    Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
    Offline
    Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:24 am
    Posts: 287
    Caprice wrote:
    I don't think Retconjuration would explain all of Fate's workings. There definitely seems to be Luckamancy involved - see Artemis' fight versus Sylvia. We've got a clear example there where Artemis' stack gets unnaturally good luck to counterbalance all the "favors" Fate was doing for Sylvia.
    http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%202/147

    If it was purely Retconjuration there would be no inherent balance, the "evil DM" could just make up something unfairly tilted and say "That's just how the dice rolled, deal with it".
    It's possible that that's not Fate, it's Numbers. Our shitty DM fudges the dice, Numbers reshuffles em back to make the ledger balance. Numbers demands the return to 0. Fate demands everyone stay on its railroad.

    Though that's honestly a weak argument. You're right. Fate seems to use luckamancy as well. Good catch, I'd forgotten that fight.

    _________________
    -IRL Thinkamancer/Mathamancer in training and full time Charlie apologist.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:15 am 
    E is for Erfworld Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter This user is a Tool! This user was a Tool before it was cool Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter Mined 4 Erf Won Mine4erf for the Gobwins
    Offline
    Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:54 pm
    Posts: 510
    Retconjuration is on the Numbers axis. Assuming the metamagic is correct, then Retconjuration could work by retroactively changing the Numbers to control present outcomes.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:12 pm 
    User avatar
    Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
    Offline
    Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:24 am
    Posts: 287
    Jaxad0127 wrote:
    Retconjuration is on the Numbers axis. Assuming the metamagic is correct, then Retconjuration could work by retroactively changing the Numbers to control present outcomes.

    Honestly, I don't trust the metamagic table to be a completely useful indicator of how things work. Particularly for this instance because Retconjuration is itself a retconjuration and that spot on the chart when it was initially designed used to be "Deletionism" and Retconjuration was stuck in in its place. The location was most likely chosen because it's a "forbidden magic" (naughty) and the other 2 naughty slots had been shown canonically already as opposed to any thought to it being a number based dicipline.

    As someone who's done these sorts of grids for games I've designed I know all too well the feeling of trying to shoehorn certain into certain places they don't REALLLLLY fit either because you have a blank slot in the grid you need to fill or because you have an entry you want on the grid that doesn't fit into any of the free slots very well. It's hard enough with a standard 3 by 3 and the magic chart is a 3 by [0..3] clustered into themed and punned categories of 3 each. I suspect that, were Rob not confined to this system, Healomancy (for example) would be a Life magic and it only isn't because the spot is taken so it shuffled to the no element row. Like... remember, Fate doesn't care about non-fated units, so if healomancy is PURE fate magic then it shouldn't work on most units right? (Though personally, I think Clevermancy and Hocus Pocus should just flip slots entirely. Why is mathamancy Life but Moneymancy, which is tied to upkeep, isn't? Why isn't predictomancy the Pure FATE field? and Healomancy the pure life? just... gahh)

    _________________
    -IRL Thinkamancer/Mathamancer in training and full time Charlie apologist.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:17 pm 
    User avatar
    Offline
    Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:19 pm
    Posts: 239
    easter wrote:
    So. In the very first page of the very first book we see that the event which caused Parson to be summoned was the titans leaving behind an extra gem back when they created Erfworld which gave the marbits and extra stack, which broke the 23 spidew, which killed the CWL of GWK. But Parson's summoning was a response to Fate needing Charlie killed.


    You know reading this webcomic for a long time I've always deeply disliked the concept of Fate, as in the DM-like entity of the story not the magic axis, and I could never quite put my finger on why that was, certainly chosen one heroes are a trope that is as old as time and have appeared in a lot of stories, for example I don't dislike Anakin's special status in Star Wars.

    But in Erfworld the idea of Fate always seemed "dirty" somehow to me.

    And your post has reminded me why, I started following this comic back on the gitp forum and just the first page gem -> a few extra units -> a battle is lost unexpectedly -> Wanda and Stanley have to put in motion a "Hail Mary" type plan it just struck a cord with me, it sold me on the idea that despite the dragons and magic and etc this was a realistic world even the smallest things matter and have consequences.

    This whole "Parson is Fate's champion here to slay Charlie and fix Erfworld" effectively undoes every little bit of good will that first page managed to earn.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:46 pm 
    User avatar
    Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
    Offline
    Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:24 am
    Posts: 287
    Hero of Shadows wrote:
    You know reading this webcomic for a long time I've always deeply disliked the concept of Fate, as in the DM-like entity of the story not the magic axis, and I could never quite put my finger on why that was, certainly chosen one heroes are a trope that is as old as time and have appeared in a lot of stories, for example I don't dislike Anakin's special status in Star Wars.

    But in Erfworld the idea of Fate always seemed "dirty" somehow to me.

    And your post has reminded me why, I started following this comic back on the gitp forum and just the first page gem -> a few extra units -> a battle is lost unexpectedly -> Wanda and Stanley have to put in motion a "Hail Mary" type plan it just struck a cord with me, it sold me on the idea that despite the dragons and magic and etc this was a realistic world even the smallest things matter and have consequences.

    This whole "Parson is Fate's champion here to slay Charlie and fix Erfworld" effectively undoes every little bit of good will that first page managed to earn.
    I am fine with how Fate is in this comic as long as it ends up as a Big Bad. Like... I feel that Fate has been consistently described as being in opposition to Free Will (Jojo and Charlie both describe it as Free Will vs Fate both publicly and privately) and Free Will as being a desirable thing for our protagonist (Parson has his whole "I'm a player. Fuck you" moment where he champions autonomy as more valuable than victory and also describes his situation as "being railroaded by 2 different GMs" in a decidedly negative way) and consistently shown to make people's lives worse (eg. Book 0. Just... all of Book 0) so the notion that Fate feels like a dirty cheat works for me because Fate *is* a dirty cheat, and that makes it a good villain. It's overpowered, unfair, unquestionably dickish, inherently one step ahead, and in opposition to the protagonists values... but I really want the protagonist to stop and mention "Oh hey. Fate is a big asshole, and once this smaller and less powerful asshole Charlie is dealt with, that's something I'm looking into" because currently, Parson might be a nicer PERSON than Charlie, but he's part of a much worse SIDE and recently seems to be more or less fine with that which is forcing me to sort of be on Charlie's side? Which worries me. Because Fate isn't a bad guy like Stanley, where it's endearingly incompetent and has a "started from the bottom" backstory and a very human napolean complex that can grow on us... hell it's not even a bad guy like Charlie is with an understandable motivation (at the very least, personal survival) it's just a faceless illuminati-esque puppetmaster who has more power than anyone else in the game and seems to have the singular purpose of treating all the people in this world, who Rob has gone out of his way to show us are real, sapient beings with values and drives and flaws and strength... as action figures and barbie dolls for its own amusement. So like... my stance on Fate as good and a valuable part of this story, is retroconjuratively contingent on the story ending with it having been acknowledged as a bad guy by the good guys and defeated or otherwise waylaid.

    _________________
    -IRL Thinkamancer/Mathamancer in training and full time Charlie apologist.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
    Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
     
    Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 7 posts ] 

    Board index » Erfworld Things » Everything Else Erfworld


    Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests

     
     

     
    You cannot post new topics in this forum
    You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    You cannot edit your posts in this forum
    You cannot delete your posts in this forum
    You cannot post attachments in this forum

    Search for:
    Jump to: