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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:55 am 
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kotrochuko wrote:
I have to disagree with Fate not treating Jillian kindly. Fate keeps handing Jillian armies, kingdoms, allies and generally everything else she wants. (up to and including Wanda right now)

Jillian just consistently dumbs it away.

None of which were things Jillian wanted. All she's ever wanted in life is Stanley's head on a stick. She never wanted an army. a kingdom, or allies. She explicitly tried to refuse them all whenever someone tried to offer such a thing to her.

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     Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:46 pm 
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    I don't really like Jillian but I have sympathy for her. I feel like Jillian is essentially book one Stanley if he never acknowledged that he had made mistakes be caused the problems of his side. I think that her hate of Stanley makes a little sense and is in part fueled by fate. My guess is fate is trying to get her killed by the side with wanda so she can be decrypted and like jack revert to a self that holds no ties to CC contracts or restrictions. She would then aim all the vaguely focused anger she has back on fates intended target of Charlie and maybe finally find some kind of catharsis in doing what she was created for. At that point she will likely be much more enjoyable as a character since she wouldn't have this strong motivation to destroy a thing that she is restricted from being able to really think about.

    I also have a feeling that Charlie knows this or at least suspects it. Being a carny gives him a sense of cheats and leaving the kill him device alove but broken keeps him safe from it and keeps fate from making a new one since the old one is still active, but then Parson came in.

    I get the feeling this would be bad for parson as he seems to be Fates plan B. With plan A back on the table I think fate would be focused on removing him from the game since he no longer has a reason to be there and he like Charlie is aware of things that screw up the way ref seems intended to work.


    Last edited by PastorofMuppets on Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:49 pm 
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    I don't hate her,

    but it seems like she's almost aware that she's a character in a story and fights so hard against the plot that she keeps derailing everything.

    Rena_Ishtar wrote:
    Jillian is like cornbread


    Excellent summary. XD

    ---

    She doesn't even know the protagonist EXISTS. How involved in the story is she, really?

    It's like she's new to roleplaying games and keeps derailing everything that isn't about her. XD

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     Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:35 pm 
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    Anomynous 167 wrote:
    None of which were things Jillian wanted. All she's ever wanted in life is Stanley's head on a stick. She never wanted an army. a kingdom, or allies. She explicitly tried to refuse them all whenever someone tried to offer such a thing to her.


    Hence 'dumbing it away'. It's possible that Jillian is capable of carrying out her duties, she's capable of forethought, but you wouldn't know it by looking at her battleplan or by how she lives her life.

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    Spoiler: show
    She's like some kind of rage golem. We all think that Jill's alive to be fate's puppet, but that doesn't make sense because 99% of the people Jil interacts with admire her or say she's great with no prompting and if fate could affect people mentally, then it could create an aversion to Archons, or a general dislike of Charlescomm.

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     Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:44 pm 
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    I would say that the main reason that people don't like Jillian is this: FAQ. Just like the history of her side, and how it fell, she herself is supposed to be mysterious. And as a result we have little understanding of her motivations and thought processes.

    As you can see from Robs recent post about the skip days, he mentioned he wasn't going to have stip 285, because it revealed things about Parson's thought process that he did not want to reveal yet. But he decided he needed to otherwise Parson's actions of accepting Rogers proposal would have made him look stupid. But because we now know why Parson made the decision, it makes a lot more sense. Likewise there was a much earlier update that explains why Ansom made that explains Ansom's actions on why he made that made dash above the wall during the Battle for Gobwin Knob. This explanation made that action look far less stupid.

    But with Jillian in all of book 3/4 there has only been 3 text updates from her point of view. And in them they were mostly talking about her immediate concerns. Nothing that goes too deep, or is introspective of the past. Rob has been very careful not to reveal anything about her. We don't know why she does not like Stanley, why she abandoned the battle of Jetstone, how she evaded the hammer blast, or why she kept getting captured at the very beginning, etc. Those things are all kept secret.

    It seems to me that Rob is very deliberately making Jillians actions hard to make sense of, only to reveal them all later. And when he does we will suddenly see how smart and dangerous Jillian really is. And this will be just before she gets a power-up, like Wanda or the Hammer.

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     Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:11 pm 
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    We're into Book 4. How much longer until one of the major players makes sense to the readers?

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     Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:02 pm 
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    Sir Dr D wrote:
    We don't know why she does not like Stanley, why she abandoned the battle of Jetstone, how she evaded the hammer blast, or why she kept getting captured at the very beginning, etc. Those things are all kept secret.


    I feel like we do know some of those answers, people just keep refusing to accept them.

    1. She blames him for the death of her father and many of the people she knew, some of whom she only learned were alive during or just before Book 1.
    2. She left Spacerock to avoid fighting Wanda, to go claim Ansom, and because the battle seemed to be a foregone conclusion.
    3. This we don’t have a firm answer for, but it also might not have been an action on her part that led to the miss.
    4. We know that after the first time she was captured, she knew Wanda was in GK and can at least guess that it effected her decisions.

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     Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:18 pm 
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    There is the question of exactly how many times she was actually captured, also.

    Possibly only 2 times: Once, I believe by accident the first time before Book 1 started, at which point she discovered Wanda was working for Stanley, and then the second time we saw in the comic was possibly accidental, possibly intentional. The Guy Who Didn't Like Her Much is the one who described her as "that barbarian who gets captured all the time" while sucking up to his Prince, so I don't take him at his word on that.

    I have trouble believing she actually *wanted* to lose that battle against the dwagons, my best guess would be that she was just letting fate or Fate handle things, in her own roundabout way. I doubt she'd describe it as such tho.

    But I'm just guessing. After X years of reading the comic, I'm constantly guessing and in the dark about this character. (Edit: I don't know how long I've been reading. Feels like forever sometimes...)

    ... I guess that means she is well written. Still annoying as boop sometimes. XD


    Edit: I think Rob hasn't shown her in depth to keep her mysterious at first and then to minimize her screentime after the Jillian hate, which as this thread shows may have led to further frustrations with the character.

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     Post Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:34 am 
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    Keighvin1 wrote:
    I feel like we do know some of those answers, people just keep refusing to accept them.

    1. She blames him for the death of her father and many of the people she knew, some of whom she only learned were alive during or just before Book 1.

    How and why Stanely rose to power, how and why he got the hammer, what his relationship with Wanda AND FAQ was, and the exact incident of how and why he took FAQ are all big mysterious. We know next to nothing about that period, and cannot judge Jillian's hatred of him. The relationships were likely complex, and I suspect she hated Stanley even before he took FAQ.


    Keighvin1 wrote:
    2. She left Spacerock to avoid fighting Wanda, to go claim Ansom, and because the battle seemed to be a foregone conclusion.

    All big parts of. And I thank you for bringing up the part about the battle seeming like being foregone conclusion. Many people forget that part. Or that Wanda was her best friend.

    But when Wanda was captured in the magic kingdom, Jillian had no concern about her safety, as she seemed to think Wanda can just get out of anything. So it is possible that she thought that fighting Wanda's stack directly was just a bad idea. (And it probably was) And she couldn't explain that to people because she didn't understand it fully herself, and it would make her sound crazy. But she worked around that and still hurt the enemy as much as could. Rob has been tiptoeing around talking about Jillian's history and thoughts about Fate, so could have been unable to give all of Jillian's thoughts about that battle. She should know that things turn out bad to those who fight Wanda in battle.

    I don't think she thought Jetstone would outright lose. But I could see her thinking that Wanda would escape, but not without doing some damage first. Not much Jillian could do about that except avoid the damage to her own side.


    Keighvin1 wrote:
    3. This we don’t have a firm answer for, but it also might not have been an action on her part that led to the miss.

    Yes, it is always a possibility that the miss had nothing to do with her actions. But I find that unlikely, as it makes many dialog of the scene make no sense, and makes Jillian, Charlie,and Wanda come off as being stupid. But it is certainly one of those scenes where more information effects our interpretation, which ever way it goes.

    Keighvin1 wrote:
    4. We know that after the first time she was captured, she knew Wanda was in GK and can at least guess that it effected her decisions.

    It is possible she was trying to get captured, or any number of other things. It is a time period I am curious about, and would like to know her thoughts from that time.

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     Post Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:48 am 
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    Beeskee wrote:
    I have trouble believing she actually *wanted* to lose that battle against the dwagons, my best guess would be that she was just letting fate or Fate handle things, in her own roundabout way. I doubt she'd describe it as such tho.

    She didn't chose the battle with the Dwagons. Stanley sent the dwagons against her. Even if she was planning to get captured, she wasn't planning for it so soon. Capture by dwagons mid air is just too risky.

    Beeskee wrote:
    Edit: I think Rob hasn't shown her in depth to keep her mysterious at first and then to minimize her screentime after the Jillian hate, which as this thread shows may have led to further frustrations with the character.

    Ansom didn't have much depth, but Rob has been working on adding some to him. He could have with Jillian as well. And in her battle with Stanley there was neither a sound effect with the ligtning to show it was Fate, nor any direct text to show it was her action. That leaves it ambiguous was implies Rob is deliberately stirring up the Jillian controversy. He hasn't shown her in depth, to avoid telling secrets about her till later in the story.

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     Post Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:57 am 
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    Sir Dr D wrote:
    ...Wanda was her best friend.

    But when Wanda was captured in the magic kingdom, Jillian had no concern about her safety, as she seemed to think Wanda can just get out of anything. So it is possible that she thought that fighting Wanda's stack directly was just a bad idea. (And it probably was) And she couldn't explain that to people because she didn't understand it fully herself, and it would make her sound crazy. But she worked around that and still hurt the enemy as much as could. Rob has been tiptoeing around talking about Jillian's history and thoughts about Fate, so could have been unable to give all of Jillian's thoughts about that battle. She should know that things turn out bad to those who fight Wanda in battle.

    I don't think she thought Jetstone would outright lose. But I could see her thinking that Wanda would escape, but not without doing some damage first. Not much Jillian could do about that except avoid the damage to her own side.

    Wanda wasn't just her best friend, Jillian loved her. Even after Wanda used the suggestion spell, which really ticked her off, Jillian wanted to redeem or "save" her. She mentioned that she and Ansom have taken turns saving each other, so it appears to be a part of her DNA. For that matter, as much as she disliked her father and most of the court, all she ever wanted to do was save them... hm. I wonder what it takes for a good psychologist to pop in Erfworld? One could make a fortune in shmuckers trying to straighten out that hot mess.

    Anyway, at Spacerock, after Wanda chose the Arkentools over being with her, Jillian still could not fight her. She still believed that Wanda was worth saving.

    Well, at least right up until Ansom attacked her. At that moment, she "knew" two things: the Ansom she knew and loved was truly gone, and Wanda was controlling him, causing him to at least attempt to croak her. Think about that for a moment. Jillian had always believed she was safe from Wanda and thought Wanda would go to any extreme to protect her, just as she would do. Coming to the realization that Wanda actually attempted to croak her must have broken something. At that point, I believe Jillian ceased to care about either Wanda or Ansom.

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     Post Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:59 am 
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    Sir Dr D wrote:
    How and why Stanely rose to power, how and why he got the hammer, what his relationship with Wanda AND FAQ was, and the exact incident of how and why he took FAQ are all big mysterious. We know next to nothing about that period, and cannot judge Jillian's hatred of him. The relationships were likely complex, and I suspect she hated Stanley even before he took FAQ.

    Book 1 all but states that she didn't know about Stanley until well after Faq fell.

    I don't think she's found out that Wanda betrayed Faq yet, but I can't wait to see her response. Should be quite illuminating.

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     Post Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:14 pm 
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    Merilynne wrote:
    I wonder what it takes for a good psychologist to pop in Erfworld? One could make a fortune in shmuckers trying to straighten out that hot mess.

    I guess if Jillian was Fated to have her issues sorted out by talking, Fate would have made sure she popped a Date-a-mancer instead of Prince Albert...

    Come to think of it, could Charlie have somehow prevented Faq from popping a Caster?

    Edit: Y'know, when Charlie was talking to Don, he wouldn't confirm it was impossible for him to prevent TV popping his heir at all. I think he might be able to.

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     Post Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:36 pm 
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    Sir Dr D wrote:
    She didn't chose the battle with the Dwagons. Stanley sent the dwagons against her. Even if she was planning to get captured, she wasn't planning for it so soon. Capture by dwagons mid air is just too risky.


    I remember, her turn was over at that point - I just mean that I don't think she intentionally lost.

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:40 am 
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    It's an interesting dynamic between Wanda and Jillian.

    They are both aware that they are characters in a story. Wanda has committed to doing everything she can to advance that story, without regard for what happens to herself. Jillian does just what everyone says, she refuses to allow the story to advance, she especially resents and resists any development of her own character, often for no reason at all other than because it advances the story.

    They have always been betraying each other, from the moment they met through the eyes of that doll. They've arguably had much lower points in their relationship, and yet....

    I think that Jillian has finally gone too far, by becoming Charlie's pawn.

    Not just in Wanda's eyes.

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:45 am 
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    I don't think hating or not liking Jillian is the problem. There's a lot of characters I don't particularly like. For instance I don't much care for Jillian's son Albert. Yet even though I don't like Albert, I'm always excited to see an update that features him. He's interesting. Yes he's a dick who killed a guy from his own side in a fit of childish spite, but I'm always ready to see him get punished for his misdeeds, how other characters try to make him learn, or even his efforts to be the bold prince he thinks he needs to be. I can sympathize for his situation, his mother is a level nine warlord who carved out her own side through sheer dint of her badass-ness. That's a rough shadow for anyone to be stuck in. I'm not sure if I want Albert to succeed or fail, but I'm always ready to tune in to see what happens.

    But with Jillian... I'm not as interested. She does get punished for her choices, she lost her capital and her... "friend?" Don King. She lost Ansom. She lost Vinni. But I'm not really invested in seeing her succeed. I don't even know what success would be for her at this point. Killing Stanley? Destroying Gobwin Knob? Getting Wanda and Jack back on her side? Making her side successful? Maybe that's the problem. In a comic about scheming, plans, strategy, and politics she just seems to be kind of lumbering around with a bat and no real plan.

    Sorry, this probably wasn't much help :oops:

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:43 am 
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    Silent Knight wrote:
    I don't think hating or not liking Jillian is the problem. There's a lot of characters I don't particularly like. For instance I don't much care for Jillian's son Albert. Yet even though I don't like Albert, I'm always excited to see an update that features him. He's interesting. Yes he's a dick who killed a guy from his own side in a fit of childish spite, but I'm always ready to see him get punished for his misdeeds, how other characters try to make him learn, or even his efforts to be the bold prince he thinks he needs to be. I can sympathize for his situation, his mother is a level nine warlord who carved out her own side through sheer dint of her badass-ness. That's a rough shadow for anyone to be stuck in. I'm not sure if I want Albert to succeed or fail, but I'm always ready to tune in to see what happens.

    But with Jillian... I'm not as interested. She does get punished for her choices, she lost her capital and her... "friend?" Don King. She lost Ansom. She lost Vinni. But I'm not really invested in seeing her succeed. I don't even know what success would be for her at this point. Killing Stanley? Destroying Gobwin Knob? Getting Wanda and Jack back on her side? Making her side successful? Maybe that's the problem. In a comic about scheming, plans, strategy, and politics she just seems to be kind of lumbering around with a bat and no real plan.

    Sorry, this probably wasn't much help :oops:


    And that's a point of her character. Charlie recognized her as a potential player, as a rival and a force to be reckoned with... and removed her as a threat. The thread of fate has been severed, player 4 has become pawn and we are all left to wonder what shoulda woulda coulda have happened and what's the point.

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:01 pm 
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    youngstormlord wrote:
    Silent Knight wrote:
    I don't think hating or not liking Jillian is the problem. There's a lot of characters I don't particularly like. For instance I don't much care for Jillian's son Albert. Yet even though I don't like Albert, I'm always excited to see an update that features him. He's interesting. Yes he's a dick who killed a guy from his own side in a fit of childish spite, but I'm always ready to see him get punished for his misdeeds, how other characters try to make him learn, or even his efforts to be the bold prince he thinks he needs to be. I can sympathize for his situation, his mother is a level nine warlord who carved out her own side through sheer dint of her badass-ness. That's a rough shadow for anyone to be stuck in. I'm not sure if I want Albert to succeed or fail, but I'm always ready to tune in to see what happens.

    But with Jillian... I'm not as interested. She does get punished for her choices, she lost her capital and her... "friend?" Don King. She lost Ansom. She lost Vinni. But I'm not really invested in seeing her succeed. I don't even know what success would be for her at this point. Killing Stanley? Destroying Gobwin Knob? Getting Wanda and Jack back on her side? Making her side successful? Maybe that's the problem. In a comic about scheming, plans, strategy, and politics she just seems to be kind of lumbering around with a bat and no real plan.

    Sorry, this probably wasn't much help :oops:


    And that's a point of her character. Charlie recognized her as a potential player, as a rival and a force to be reckoned with... and removed her as a threat. The thread of fate has been severed, player 4 has become pawn and we are all left to wonder what shoulda woulda coulda have happened and what's the point.


    I've seen this argument again and again, that the reason Jillian is the way she is lies in whatever Charlie did to her. But I just don't buy it. We've seen Jillian in book 0, before Charlie lobotomized her. She wasn't any different as the princess of old FAQ than she is now as the queen of FAQ. She was just as rash, aggressive and planless as she is today.

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:26 pm 
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    Yes, her essential personality traits were the same.

    But she advanced the narrative rather than constantly impeding it. Even when she "defied Fate" by trying to falsify Predictions, things quickly turned out as Predicted.

    What's broken about Jillian isn't just her mind and consciousness of a higher duty than finding something to chop (and while her personality wasn't different in Book 0 those specific things were). It's her connection to the overall narrative of Erfworld that has been severed.

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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:03 am 
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    I personally feel she is just handed so many wins she doesn't deserve. Charlie has saved her ass from failure how many times now? Presumably this is due to the contract they signed but still it doesn't feel satisfying to have all these wins when by her own merit she'd be dead long ago.

    But honestly? I was okay with it, her story was tolerable. Until recently when she got the prophecy that Wanda will serve her, that was just too fucking much.

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