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 Post subject: Time
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:20 am 
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So Charles was forced to address all of the people pinging for his attention before he could deal with the MK situation, but that appears to have only gotten Wands and peeps 10-30 min, is this accurate? Shouldn't it be longer?

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     Post subject: Re: Time
     Post Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:09 am 
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    conmor wrote:
    So Charles was forced to address all of the people pinging for his attention before he could deal with the MK situation, but that appears to have only gotten Wands and peeps 10-30 min, is this accurate? Shouldn't it be longer?


    Time is relative in Erfworld. In theory Charlie could have done all his calls in the time it took Wanda to blink once. Now I am not a Phd in Erf so don't hold me to this 100% but so far there are no concrete rules on how exactly this works. Time seems to sync up based on events, if Charlie's business had no direct contact with the Magic Kingdom or any other relevant hex then it should appear instantaneous to them or close to it. More than anything it seems time in Erf runs by rules of drama, things will happen in the most dramatic moment, saving someone will happen in the last minute, gambits will fire when the odds of things blowing up spectacularly are the highest and so on. This would imply time is mainly or entirely governed by Fate which makes a fair bit of sense with the cosmology of Erfworld.

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     Post subject: Re: Time
     Post Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:38 am 
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    Erfworld time also seems to run on laws of sequence, rather than immutable units of measurement; events occur in order, regardless of how long any of the actions took to complete.

    Parson & Sizemore discussed it in Prologue 8 for Book 2, way back when.
    Da Boyz wrote:
    "You're saying I could walk two hexes... well, if I could move out of the city... I could walk two hexes and think an hour has passed, and you watch me and you think... like, a minute has?"

    "Of course! Exactly. How else could you scout?"

    "Well that can't be!" Parson frowned. "That can't be. What if I send a message back to you? It'll be like you getting a message from the future!"

    "The future of what, Warlord?" said Sizemore pointedly. Parson didn't have an answer for that.

    "You're going to do what you're going to do on your turn. Only the order of our actions is important. Time isn't. It's not like you're sending a message from future turns."

    _________________
    "Are you always so pessimistic?"
    "Not at all. I saved it for my last battle."
    ---
    Ask Count Downer is over and archived now.

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     Post subject: Re: Time
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:28 am 
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    @NOIP Yes events obviously happen in sequence but when you are dealing with more than one hex who decides the speed of relative time (and in practice you are always dealing with more than one hex). Imagine a battle going on in one hex and there is an army currently in another hex marching in to reinforce. Will they arrive the moment they are ordered to or will it take some time? This is why I think Fate may play a role in the way time flows. Or even more complicatedly imagine if there are some enemy troops in the way and a battle is fought, does this battle happen instantly from the PoV of the people in the "main" battle or does it create a delay?

    I guess you are arguing that things play out like they do in a game, actions matter not real time. But that is not entirely true, if it was all battles would happen instantly from the PoV of an outside observer but they don't. Parson was able to get into the middle of a battle with his Portal Park manoeuvre. So not only do battles not happen instantly as they might in a game we also know it takes time to move even when not traversing hexes the regular way (i.e. using portals) because events unfolded while Parson was delayed in PP.

    The best explanation for it is that time runs on rule of drama. Which is actually a force of nature in Erf so it's fine though still a bit cheesy and unsatisfying since it takes away a lot of innitiative from Parson and other commanders by making them playthings of Fate.

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     Post subject: Re: Time
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:54 pm 
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    I'd just like to point out that, in this specific case, Deisaac apparently wanted to leave Wanda hanging around long enough to give himself a pretty solid lead. I don't know how long Ivan and Claud spent zonked out, but it could well have been "until I remotely release them".

    As far as time mechanics in Erfworld are concerned, Thinkspace/gram seems to "sync" distant hexes, so effectively we could say that talking (at least via Thinkspace) is, if not free, at least far less costly than other forms of communication.

    That said, I think that Charlie really rushed things. His disinformercial to Buck felt hasty, sloppily composed, oversold, desperate, all notably different from his usual demeanor. And not because Buck was pushing back hard or anything like what brings out flashes of impatience from Charlie other times we've seen. And this was pretty high on the list of communications bearing directly on his current focus, I can only imagine how his "homework" assignments looked.

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     Post subject: Re: Time
     Post Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:44 am 
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    C9H20 wrote:
    Parson was able to get into the middle of a battle with his Portal Park manoeuvre. So not only do battles not happen instantly as they might in a game we also know it takes time to move even when not traversing hexes the regular way (i.e. using portals) because events unfolded while Parson was delayed in PP.

    As stated, observing matters. Maggie was watching the battle (so Parson would know when the portal room was secured), so the two hexes were in sync.

    Chiu ChunLing wrote:
    That said, I think that Charlie really rushed things. His disinformercial to Buck felt hasty, sloppily composed, oversold, desperate, all notably different from his usual demeanor. And not because Buck was pushing back hard or anything like what brings out flashes of impatience from Charlie other times we've seen. And this was pretty high on the list of communications bearing directly on his current focus, I can only imagine how his "homework" assignments looked.

    Buck could also count as a (potential) client, and he isn't a Carny, so the tower may have let him through sooner. Charlie still would've needed to rush somewhat to get in contact with the Carnies to help any plan along.

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     Post subject: Re: Time
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:07 pm 
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    I disagree. Maggie wasn't observing more than usual, and if she did her attention was split between Portal Park and the battle so both shouldn't be synched and they were, or rather weren't but time is more complicated than in a 4x strategy game.

    Alternatively you can say she is observing everything as a Thinkamancer, being connected to every unit of the side but that would imply all hexes of a side with a Thinky are synced. Worse, the Ruler can also sense all units so every side should be totally in sync but that is obviously untrue.

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     Post subject: Re: Time
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:39 pm 
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    Looking over some book 2 pages, things were only as synced between GK, Spacerock, and MK as far as events occurring in order, with the only "realtime" segments during thinkagrams. I don't see any actual time sync, just Parson and Maggie responding to events as they are made aware of them. Stanley, Parson, and Maggie were watching the battle is Spacerock (as much as they could) meaning there were events to keep in order, but I don't see hard evidence of time being in sync.

    Parson joining the battle through the MK is no different (conceptually) than him joining from an adjacent hex (which the MK functions as) and coming in at an appropriate, event-synced time. Remember, he was waiting on the portal room to be secured (event A, SR) to send Sizemore into the MK to make the tunnel (Event B, GK to MK), before entering the MK himself (event C, GK to MK), then entering Spacerock (event D, MK to SR). Only the order matters. How long it takes from each hex does not.

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     Post subject: Re: Time
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:37 pm 
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    Remember though that the battle for Spacerock happened on Jetstones turn. So they were ordering their forces to attack, in whatever order they wanted. Ordinarily, enemy forces would have had to wait wherever they were for the turn to end. If Parson was in an adjacent hex, he could only have watched. The only reason he was able to join the battle in what appeared to be "real time" is because of the double exploits of crossing a new zone through falling and crossing through the MK portal.

    Imagine if neither was in place.

    King Slately could have decided to wait to engage the dragons, choosing instead to move their scouts throughout their entire kingdom, have a Thinkagram with Charlie, chat with his son, take a bath and then come back to the tower to order the attack. It might have taken Slately several hours to do this, but from the Gobwin Knob forces perspective the attack could have happened instantly.

    Yes it's RIDONKULOUS but that's how time works on Erf.

    _________________
    Still waiting for Parson to order Wanda and Jack to link so that he can fake his own death.

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     Post subject: Re: Time
     Post Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:40 am 
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    Diodri wrote:
    Remember though that the battle for Spacerock happened on Jetstones turn. So they were ordering their forces to attack, in whatever order they wanted. Ordinarily, enemy forces would have had to wait wherever they were for the turn to end. If Parson was in an adjacent hex, he could only have watched. The only reason he was able to join the battle in what appeared to be "real time" is because of the double exploits of crossing a new zone through falling and crossing through the MK portal.

    Imagine if neither was in place.

    King Slately could have decided to wait to engage the dragons, choosing instead to move their scouts throughout their entire kingdom, have a Thinkagram with Charlie, chat with his son, take a bath and then come back to the tower to order the attack. It might have taken Slately several hours to do this, but from the Gobwin Knob forces perspective the attack could have happened instantly.

    Yes it's RIDONKULOUS but that's how time works on Erf.

    That doesn't contradict anything I said. And movement involving the MK has always been possible off turn; it is a "hex" with some different rules.

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     Post subject: Re: Time
     Post Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:48 am 
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    Jaxad0127 wrote:
    Parson joining the battle through the MK is no different (conceptually) than him joining from an adjacent hex (which the MK functions as) and coming in at an appropriate, event-synced time.


    Maybe I was too hung up on this line. Joining a battle from a different hex off turn is usually impossible.

    _________________
    Still waiting for Parson to order Wanda and Jack to link so that he can fake his own death.

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