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 Post Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 3:21 pm 
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Shai hulud wrote:
Couldn't even follow your own rule for a single post. Good job. :roll:


Uh, no. It's not a rule. We have one rule.

Occasionally, in public or private, I give some hopefully helpful...what...guidelines, examples, user cases? Whatever you'd call them, there are some posted lists of "doing these things almost always means you are breaking the one rule." It's to avoid surprises. The culture war thing keeps coming up, and I keep telling people to cool it, so I thought some general guidance about why it got to the point where I gave zilfallon the boot would help keep others from being warned or booted.

It's like saying, "having these features generally means you are a mammal: warm blood, hair or fur, giving birth live, lactation, four-chambered heart, high metabolism, long gestation period." Is that a complete list of "rules" for being a mammal? No. Are there animals that have some of these characteristics but are not mammals? Yes. Are there any mammals lacking some of the criteria? Yes. So are echidnas breaking the rules of mammaldom? How do you even answer that? It's a category error to call them rules in the first place.

So don't look for rules to game. Don't use the guidelines I've offered to throw gotchas at people (especially me). There's one "do," and one "don't" around here. The Golden Rule and Wheaton's Law. That's it.

I keep saying fairness is not a goal. Neither is objectivity. A system of rules and definitions of rules and strikes and mandatory ban periods that is aimed at treating all posters equally is admirable in concept, but a disaster in practice. It weeds out everybody but the socially stunted rules-lawyer types who think the forum is an adversarial game they can win.

We have a forum here that's full of decent, articulate, well-intentioned, thoughtful, curious, passionate readers. I'm proud of the kinds of people Erfworld has attracted, and the level of discussions we have. I'll fight to keep it that way, even as the rest of the culture is polarizing, and other platforms are becoming ideological purity zones for one political point of view or another. Please do bring your viewpoint here, whatever it is (Golden Rule). But don't be here just to proselytize and parrot it (Wheaton's Law). Listen. Think. Respond. You don't need to agree. Respect for other posters is the key to being welcome here, especially respecting those who see things differently from you.

I mentioned the Tumbrinas, and sure, that's outright name-calling. On the surface of it, it's pretty hypocritical in light of what I'd just said not to do, right? I was aware.

The point of phrasing it that way was to make it clear to the banned and everyone else reading the public discussion that I'm not making this particular decision because I am a member of the opposing camp. Particularly in the case of the anti-PC crowd, where they're all such put-upon victims of cultural oppression, I wanted zilfallon and every other woe-is-male type not to be taking this ban as an anecdote of how he was "silenced" for merely stating his views.

No, he was kicked out of the village for pissing in the well, after being told he'd be kicked out if he pissed in the well again. It wasn't about the color of the piss, or how much piss was enough to trigger the ban. Next time, maybe I'll have to ban the kind of person he likes to rail against, the one who needs to cry "sexism" every time something negative is said about or done to a female character, who won't budge from that position in the face of reasonable counterarguments, and keeps bringing it up when the topic has moved on. If you've got a better term than Tumblrina for somebody like that, I'll take suggestions. But that's who I mean, and we definitely have a handful of them.

Look, if I'm in a camp, it's the camp of "camps are bad."

If I've got a chip on my shoulder, it says, "you can't come in here with that chip on your shoulder, buddy."

You're welcome to call that hypocrisy, but I hope it at least clears up where I'm coming from. (Also, this seriously needs to be the last 90 minutes of writing time I spend on writing forum posts.)

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     Post Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 4:04 pm 
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    balder wrote:
    A system of rules and definitions of rules and strikes and mandatory ban periods that is aimed at treating all posters equally is admirable in concept, but a disaster in practice. It weeds out everybody but the socially stunted rules-lawyer types who think the forum is an adversarial game they can win.
    There's a reason that some games are really only oriented towards single player mode. But a "text based interaction" 'game' in which there are a lot of rules about what answers you're allowed to give seems more like a quiz or academic test to me. Blarg.

    Who hated English class?

    I love literature. But I despise giving rote answers to fit some arbitrarily defined category of "correct" opinions about the possible meaning or significance of any work of art.

    Anyway, on the subject of having really cool parades, there is logical connection between the culture of militarism (and 'cultural' affectation of the military) and fascism, the idea that society should be bound together primarily by displays of military and police power. That is, it is not an accident that the Nazis focused on having really cool uniforms and throwing grand parades to display the cultural superiority as expressed by sharp military fashion.

    Thinking that sharp military parades are the point of society rather than something you do to bolster morale at a time when you're under attack is already moving down the path of embracing the ideals which the Nazis exemplified. It's not the whole path, or even a necessary stepping stone (though it is a pretty common element). But it's far enough from any other path that there's not much point worrying that someone who isn't basically inclined to admire the Nazis for more pertinent reasons will be drawn to them by their cutting edge fashion sense.

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     Post Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 9:03 pm 
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    balder wrote:
    You're welcome to call that hypocrisy, but I hope it at least clears up where I'm coming from. (Also, this seriously needs to be the last 90 minutes of writing time I spend on writing forum posts.)

    You said you wanted a higher percentage of female readers. A bunch of male readers were butthurt you might be a SJW. You decided to say a misogynistic thing to assuage the fears of the butthurts. You probably still have a low percentage of female readers. But you probably don't think there's a correlation. That amuses me. That's all. It's not about you being a hypocrite. It's just super funny to me.

    But seriously, if you ban all the liberals who call themselves leftwing, I won't get to post my sad leftist image as a response. :|

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     Post Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 10:10 pm 
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    Shai hulud wrote:
    You said you wanted a higher percentage of female readers.


    Curious, where did you see/hear this? A fine enough desire, just wondering about context.

    Quote:
    A bunch of male readers were butthurt you might be a SJW.


    And curious again, where did you get this? I doubt anyone even knew Zilfallon was banned long enough to complain about it, before Rob posted this explanation thread.

    So I suppose you could claim it was pre-emptive to dispel the likelihood of potential accusations of bias, but I don't see how you can justify the claim that you actually made.

    Quote:
    You decided to say a misogynistic thing to assuage the fears of the butthurts.


    Interesting, I didn't perceive "social justice Tumblrina" to be a comment directed at women, but rather at the SJW mentality which is an ideology that cuts across race, gender, etc. But Google appears to have taught me something new today. :)

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     Post Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 10:50 pm 
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    How many banned people does this make? I don't think there have been any threads devoted to discussing previous ones. I also heard the number was quite low, and that it was due to blatent trolling. I hadn't heard about any feminist/anti-feminist rhetoric being the reason behind previous bans.

    Another question. What happens to smuckers when banned? Is this money still available to be used, refunded in cash, or taken? Does the ban only work in forums or also in all areas, including any story submissions or wiki edits?

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     Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 12:17 am 
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    Apparently most bans are temporary, cool-off bans.

    About readership, I frankly hope that most female readers of Erfworld aren't the sort that get offended over "Tumblrina" and see all expressions of male desires (yes, including the desire to have enough social prestige to attract a mate and support a family) as fundamentally hostile to the "interests of women". I find the whole MRA thing pathetic, but I don't deny that there is a lot of genuine pain involved and most of it has been caused by people other than MRAs. Still, the MRA thing doesn't help.

    I think we should just make it a solid rule to kill rapists, and work out a definition of "rape" that makes that understandable and reasonable to the great majority of people who are actually tasked with doing the killing. That would fix so much of the "men vs. women" problem, and what it wouldn't fix cannot be fixed because men and women are different and that's not going to change. But it's not a very popular position because there are too many people who don't want actual rapists punished at all, let alone killed. When you assuage that by saying you'll make really sure they're rapists, then everyone doesn't want to do it.

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     Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 12:41 am 
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    Chiu ChunLing wrote:
    I find the whole MRA thing pathetic, but I don't deny that there is a lot of genuine pain involved and most of it has been caused by people other than MRAs. Still, the MRA thing doesn't help.

    What's wrong with wanting equal rights? Remember, that's what traditional feminism was about.

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     Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 1:10 am 
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    OK, can I make a respectful plea not to go down this rabbit trail? I know one could argue Rob started it but let's please not go there, either. And I know I have contributed myself and for that I repent in dust and ashes. :)

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     Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 6:35 am 
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    Chiu ChunLing wrote:
    I think we should just make it a solid rule to kill rapists

    I was going to respond with some Views on the death penalty in general, but a moment's reflection leads me to instead ask what on Erf this (and much of the rest of your post, really, and some of the surrounding posts) has to do with the subject of the thread.

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     Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 10:19 am 
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    Ansan Gotti wrote:
    OK, can I make a respectful plea not to go down this rabbit trail? I know one could argue Rob started it but let's please not go there, either. And I know I have contributed myself and for that I repent in dust and ashes. :)
    Ansan Gotti got it it one.

    I don't know or really care whether it is clear I'm making that point on purpose. But yes, I am.

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     Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 7:24 pm 
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    Jaxad0127 wrote:
    Chiu ChunLing wrote:
    I find the whole MRA thing pathetic, but I don't deny that there is a lot of genuine pain involved and most of it has been caused by people other than MRAs. Still, the MRA thing doesn't help.

    What's wrong with wanting equal rights? Remember, that's what traditional feminism was about.


    That has nothing to do with what the MRA stuff is. It's a poison pill, a toxic set of ideas that is easy to sell to males who are resentful or feeling rejected. It definitely doesn't help them, and makes things a lot worse.

    /edit but yes, let's just leave it. Nothing good will come of this.

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     Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 10:53 pm 
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    Jatopian wrote:
    Chiu ChunLing wrote:
    I think we should just make it a solid rule to kill rapists

    I was going to respond with some Views on the death penalty in general, but a moment's reflection leads me to instead ask what on Erf this (and much of the rest of your post, really, and some of the surrounding posts) has to do with the subject of the thread.


    I think the opposite. Rape laws need to be complicated. The sort of of violent rape that people picture when they hear the word needs to be penalized strongly, but rape usually deals with an inproper level of consent then any sort of violence. I'd like to see things differentiated against, whereas the penalty for 'rape' in the way of inproper consent needs to have drastically reduced penalties from what it does now. I'd like to see modern rape cases be penalized with an embarassing workshop etc. Juries and judges won't jail someone for rape with with current definition most of the time.

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     Post Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 12:41 am 
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    Forgive my ignorance: What is SJW and Tumblrina?

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    It really speaks to how awful RVC's plan is that immolating himself first would improve the odds of success.

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     Post Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 12:51 am 
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    keybounce wrote:
    Forgive my ignorance: What is SJW and Tumblrina?

    SWJ = Social Justice Warrior

    Also, MRA = Men's Rights Activist (aka the other side to "Femninism").

    nightseraph wrote:
    Jatopian wrote:
    Chiu ChunLing wrote:
    I think we should just make it a solid rule to kill rapists

    I was going to respond with some Views on the death penalty in general, but a moment's reflection leads me to instead ask what on Erf this (and much of the rest of your post, really, and some of the surrounding posts) has to do with the subject of the thread.


    I think the opposite. Rape laws need to be complicated. The sort of of violent rape that people picture when they hear the word needs to be penalized strongly, but rape usually deals with an inproper level of consent then any sort of violence. I'd like to see things differentiated against, whereas the penalty for 'rape' in the way of inproper consent needs to have drastically reduced penalties from what it does now. I'd like to see modern rape cases be penalized with an embarassing workshop etc. Juries and judges won't jail someone for rape with with current definition most of the time.

    Especially when some women want to be able to claim rape after consensual relations and regretting it later. Or accidental breast contact. Or a man not being able to stop thrusting on a dime.

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     Post Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 1:17 am 
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    After giving this a fair bit of thought, I decided that there's probably no such thing as too much positive support for Rob after a difficult decision such as Zilfallon's ban, so stepping away from broader sociological analysis and back to the nominally original topic for a moment:

    When I first read the notice of Z's ban in the Reactions thread, I was shocked that simply being sarcastic could invoke such a ban. But this thread sorted that for me, and as I now know Z's post was anything but simple sarcasm.

    A concept one of my friends articulated a ways back is that of "sniping across the line." This is where an unethical individual griefs an ethical individual specifically by exploiting an aspect of that person's ethical nature which limits their punitive response. For simplification in my response here, you can consider ethical to equate to "rule compliant" and unethical to equate to "rule defiant." A classic example from the Internet is a troll who engages in socially unacceptable behavior and is relying on the principles of the more "civilized" netizens to protect them from commensurate punishment and/or retaliation. There are other examples IRL, which typically rely on freedom of speech protections as their exploit, that I won't enumerate here but merely reference as a class.

    On the few occasions I've had the dubious honor of moderating discussion fora, there's a term I use for certain such exploit wielding hooligans: arsonists. These are folks who are not trying to pick a fight with another patron in a roadhouse, they are not even trying to start a destructive bar fight with all the patrons in the roadhouse; no, these wankers are attempting to burn the roadhouse down. And they are not just expecting, but relying, on the civilized/ethical/law-abiding behavior of other participants-- and any moderator(s)-- to protect them from any real, lasting consequences to their otherwise intolerable actions. Actions specifically designed to incite a flame war of such epic proportions it shatters the community it takes place in.

    All of which I mention to provide background as to why I applaud Rob's handling of Zilfallon's behavior. He's taken a stand against jerkasses who are just out to ruin things for everyone else, for whatever sick, twisted reason is motivating them. And he's done so in an extremely wise fashion, by relying on heuristics rather than a ruleset that would (as Rob already noted) invite, and perhaps even encourage, different types of griefing exploit.

    When a griefer realizes they cannot escape reprisal by exploiting someone's ethical values against themselves, it is typically a huge deterrent for them to ever attempt such a gambit. Rob was gracious enough to simply extinguish the first blaze with a final warning; it should have been no surprise to Zilfallon that subsequently throwing a gasoline bomb thinly disguised as topical sarcasm would get him/her banned. Hopefully potential arsonists will learn from Zilfallon's fate and take their molotov cocktails and need to grief others somewhere else.

    So my kudos and admiration to Rob for a swift, certain response. The forum community is now the greater part of what draws me to Erfworld, and Rob's work to keep the streets crime-free and clear of trash are no small factor in that. So thank you, Mr. Balder, for taking time you can ill spare to maintain an island of civilized discourse.

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     Post Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 5:09 am 
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    For all of that, it would be nice if everyone could realize that the fact that they didn't start the fire doesn't mean it can't still burn the place down if they refuse to do their part to stop fueling it.

    There can't be "sides" and a refusal to put out flames that are on people who don't support your agenda when things are on fire. It doesn't matter that the person who started the fire is gone if everyone left is only interested in exploiting the fact that a fire has been started to burn someone else.

    The battle of the sexes never has winners anyway, but it especially has no reason to exist on this forum.

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     Post Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 7:14 am 
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    tomaO2 wrote:
    How many banned people does this make? I don't think there have been any threads devoted to discussing previous ones. I also heard the number was quite low, and that it was due to blatent trolling. I hadn't heard about any feminist/anti-feminist rhetoric being the reason behind previous bans.

    Another question. What happens to smuckers when banned? Is this money still available to be used, refunded in cash, or taken? Does the ban only work in forums or also in all areas, including any story submissions or wiki edits?

    I can confirm that the bans only apply to the forum. Users banned from the forums may still edit the wiki and comment/submit stories (I even started up the page on Scoobydom and Tweedledom. Although my transcriptions of comic pages were actions performed purely out of spite).
    The way Zilf's ban works is that if you were to access any page from the domain forums.erfworld.com , you'll be automatically logged off and shown a page similar to this one:
    Spoiler: show
    Attachment:
    File comment: An image displaying what logging on with a banned username looks like.
    ErfBanReason.PNG
    ErfBanReason.PNG [ 17.28 KiB | Viewed 670 times ]
    I hope this prefab messege wasn't a private matter.
    This also means that you won't be able to access your private messages (making it a lil' tragic that you won't be able to read Rob's final goodbye message).
    However, the same may not be true for all bans. He who shall remain nameless (since I have forgotten his name), the one who spurned Rob in such a way as to travel to the distant lands of Smithereens and forge the One Rule To Rule Them All, had been banned in such a way as not a trace of him remains on this site, beyond a smattering of quotes from second-hand sources. His account may not even exist anymore: not that it makes much of a difference to some/most since he had been foe'd by a record breaking number of people;


    As for what happens to your shmuckers: The normal protocol is to nominate someone on your site to be your son and heir. How one goes about this practice varies from person to person.

    Apon selecting your heir, you go to their user profile page (not their forum profile page) and tip them in the field below. If you're feeling stingy, do not tip your heir that one shmucker Grey Knight gave you post mortemly. One must never travel too light if they wish to take their vacation across the River Styx. The price for crossing is rather high for us non-tools, 1-shmucker.

    edit: Spelling, and accidentally double-submitted an image.

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     Post Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 9:50 am 
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    Jaxad0127 wrote:
    Also, MRA = Men's Rights Activist (aka the other side to "Femninism").

    Haha! No, it really isn't.

    Try an angry, resentful backlash to feminism.

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     Post Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 10:24 am 
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    Adept wrote:
    Jaxad0127 wrote:
    Also, MRA = Men's Rights Activist (aka the other side to "Femninism").

    Haha! No, it really isn't.

    Try an angry, resentful backlash to feminism.

    No. A backlash to modern "feminism" aka misandrism, maybe. Much of modern "feminism" is quite toxic, angry, sexists, etc.

    I specifically put feminism in quotes when referring to the more modern stuff because it doesn't have much in common with the original movement (which was about equality).

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     Post Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 12:06 pm 
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    Jaxad0127 wrote:
    Adept wrote:
    Jaxad0127 wrote:
    Also, MRA = Men's Rights Activist (aka the other side to "Femninism").

    Haha! No, it really isn't.

    Try an angry, resentful backlash to feminism.

    No. A backlash to modern "feminism" aka misandrism, maybe. Much of modern "feminism" is quite toxic, angry, sexists, etc.

    Utter rubbish, but I won't sully this thread any further by arguing with you. Life's too short, and you are too deep in your resentment to be reached.

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