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 Post subject: Why I wait sometimes
 Post Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:06 am 
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This is a thread about why the comic sometimes posts at the 23:00 something mark, eastern time. TL;DR because sometimes the update would suck if I didn't

It is really easy to look at the clock and get an objective measure of "how late" the update is. It's almost impossible to read an update and measure "how good" it is, or even whether it's "good enough to be a page of Erfworld." Somebody almost always says it isn't. On nearly every update we post, somebody in the forums is "disappointed," even when dozens of others are praising the page in the same thread. That's all fine. That's normal. But it shows how quality is subjective.

I feel like I can see where the real lines are, though. I know what kinds of mistakes and oversights ruin the page, because I've made a few that haunt me years later. So when I see a major problem or a deficiency in a page, I will drop everything else to fix it. Sometimes I will spend all the time I have available, because it's all worth it to make it better. There's no drafting process, like with other books. Fixing something in an update after posting it always feels like cheating the reader out of the "real" page, the one that will go in the book. Retconjuration is unavoidable, both in the art and in the story. But it always sucks.

And yeah, I know I have been risking exactly the kinds of technical glitch problems that finally hit us tonight. I still need to put up the best page possible in the time I have, or I won't be able to live with myself.

Anyway, that's what's going on, and this is your thread to vent about it.

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     Post subject: Re: Why I wait sometimes
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:22 am 
    Year of the Dwagon Supporter This user is a Tool! Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit This user is a part of Erfworld canon!
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    I'd have to raise an eyebrow askance at anyone that would prefer to bilk you guys for being a few minutes late, with or without technical difficulties.

    Great update, and worth the polish.


    Last edited by JMobius on Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Why I wait sometimes
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:23 am 
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    Shit happens.

    Even if you had a month-long buffer in the queue, with a script on the site automatically posting each page on time, you would have hit this exact same problem. The problem makes your night way suckier than ours, I suspect. Especially since so many people regard this comic as a "wednesday-saturday" update anyway.

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     Post subject: Re: Why I wait sometimes
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:30 am 
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    If it's not on time, it's not on time. That includes the page not being ready to go, and the site crashing when you delay till the last minute.

    That's why your money is determined by whether or not you get it in on time, your incentive to both keep a set schedule and to delay such unforeseen difficulties. It may be harsh, but "any time before midnight" is practically a whole extra day as it is, and you gave us this trust as oversight for yourself.

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     Post subject: Re: Why I wait sometimes
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:33 am 
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    lol vmag, did you create a bunch of accounts on Dec 7 just to have sock puppets with badges? :lol:

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     Post subject: Re: Why I wait sometimes
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:36 am 
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    The biggest problem I have is feeling like the updates are more about getting paid than getting the comic up. I am happy to support the site which is why I pay per ontime update, and if one is missed once in a while, planned or not, that's fine, I'll continue to support you guys. But take December for example, there was a planned vacation with clear dates for on and off. When issues kept the comic from being updated as planned the comics weren't put up as soon as possible, instead you shifted everything to the next pay day to make the 1,200 (or whatever it was at that point) off each comic instead of just saying "oops we didn't make it." To me that is not the erfworld team that got me excited to pay tribute to the site. And now we have an update moved to Tuesday to give you guys more time and we still rarely get an update until right before the deadline. Maybe you would be better off just making 2300 the update time and anything earlier is just a treat?

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     Post subject: Re: Why I wait sometimes
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:42 am 
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    Honestly, at the end of the day I'm just happy to see an update. Lots of webcomics fall behind or disappear and I remember older days of erf when updates weren't this frequent.

    I'm not sure what the dealio is behind the scenes and theres been talk of a buffer before, but it might be worth setting something up. Even if its something like a kickstarter so artists and such get paid up front instead of waiting for stuff to catch up. I imagine something of that sorts at least partially at fault simply because of how erf's income stream is setup. Kickstarter would also be a way to gauge our general interest (if we kickstart it then a buffer is great, if it doesn't meet minimum then no harm no foul).

    Of course I also realize there are a million and one reasons that factor into that. For example: I believe we had a kickstarter relatively recently? Don't want to oversaturate that too much. As someone who can never work without a deadline and is a perpetual procrastinator, I also understand that it might be functionally impossible to do such a thing. You all have far better insight into the production process, but maybe theres some tweaks to be made?

    Heck maybe even move production dates? I know we moved from mondays to tuesdays because weekends were causing issues. But now we're seeing that a lot more on fridays though mondays seem fine (from recent memory). So maybe theres a balance to strike there.

    My main concern is just things falling behind and spiraling from there. The pledges are there to keep you on track and keep you honest (so to speak), and at the end of the day it hurts team erf the most if the comic doesn't make it on time. We just don't get a comic on time, thats easy enough to deal with and get over. But you guys don't get paid if it isn't on time. You all feel that a lot more.

    I think all of us here want you guys to succeed and I'm reasonably certain (despite the grumbling and general bellyaching) we'd all prefer a quality update to a lesser one. So hopefully if nothing else, you all can look into your production schedule and figure out how to keep things from bogging down. Maybe take some time to look back and streamline things now that you have a system and have had some time to make it work.

    Ultimately, its on you all what you do since the average reader doesn't see anything but the end product. We're all rooting for you all so don't get too discouraged!

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     Post subject: Re: Why I wait sometimes
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:46 am 
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    balder wrote:
    And yeah, I know I have been risking exactly the kinds of technical glitch problems that finally hit us tonight.


    Honestly, I personally don't mind this. In my opinion, if the update is live on the server on time then the update is on time, even if nobody can access the server. There can and will be technical issues that arise that are completely outside of your (Team Erfworld's) control.

    balder wrote:
    I feel like I can see where the real lines are, though. I know what kinds of mistakes and oversights ruin the page, because I've made a few that haunt me years later. So when I see a major problem or a deficiency in a page, I will drop everything else to fix it. Sometimes I will spend all the time I have available, because it's all worth it to make it better. There's no drafting process, like with other books. Fixing something in an update after posting it always feels like cheating the reader out of the "real" page, the one that will go in the book. Retconjuration is unavoidable, both in the art and in the story. But it always sucks.

    I still need to put up the best page possible in the time I have, or I won't be able to live with myself.


    My only suggestion would be to consider limiting yourself (because your narrative adjustments honestly seem to be the cause of the recent delays) to a hard cutoff sometime prior to 11:59pm, say 11:00pm. Just so that the normal gamut of technical glitches can be iron'd out prior to the actual deadline. I mean, how much more "good update-ness" do you really squeeze into an update in that last hour?


    Last edited by Axiom on Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:59 am, edited 3 times in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Why I wait sometimes
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:48 am 
    This user is a Tool! This user was a Tool before it was cool Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
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    I'm more than happy to continue supporting the comic, even for late (for whatever definition of late) comics. There are other webcomics with update schedules of "when the author can" that I pledge to on a monthly basis. The thing, though, is I agreed to that when I started pledging to them; I entered into a different agreement here. If you'd like to revise the agreement, that's fine; but please be straightforward about it.

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     Post subject: Re: Why I wait sometimes
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:50 am 
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    vmag wrote:
    If it's not on time, it's not on time. That includes the page not being ready to go, and the site crashing when you delay till the last minute.

    That's why your money is determined by whether or not you get it in on time, your incentive to both keep a set schedule and to delay such unforeseen difficulties. It may be harsh, but "any time before midnight" is practically a whole extra day as it is, and you gave us this trust as oversight for yourself.


    I don't agree with this tone at all. But there is something to be said about "per on time update" which was the agreement. I'm not supporting atm because I'm inbetween jobs atm, but it is probably worth setting a hard limit on whether there should be an allowance for overage. Talk to the community and get an opinion going forward if you see it being a point of contention. I personally think this situation was fine, but, again I have no skin in the game atm, and there is a slippery slope argument to be made. Perhaps the suggestion that you set a deadline for 23:00 or whatever to get things uploaded might help? Though judging by the post time that still would likely be cutting it close anyways.

    If nothing else, its great to see the site support team earning their keep, resolving issues like this quickly and effectively when they pop up. So kudos to them for working quick on pressure.

    Edit: (just to keep this from filling up with a bunch of posts from me)
    Could you break down some of the posts so you can focus on smaller chunks? I know some people have been complaining about pacing (though atm I feel its the right mix of stuff happening and explaining where people are) which could be a draw back. But if the issue thats holding things up is quality. Then perhaps pare down posts so that you don't have to focus on so much at a time? Or maybe break production to something like 5 posts/2 weeks. That would mess with edit: pledges but you could do smaller chunks at a time for the first 4 and make it up with the 5th. More digestable chunks. Ideas is all, feel free to use them however :)


    Last edited by Nightehawk on Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Why I wait sometimes
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:53 am 
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    @Nightehawk They really did. Red was online and responded in seconds. We got through to John a few minutes later, at the end of his workout. They both dropped everything and worked together at identifying and fixing the problem.

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     Post subject: Re: Why I wait sometimes
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:56 am 
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    vmag wrote:
    If it's not on time, it's not on time. That includes the page not being ready to go, and the site crashing when you delay till the last minute.

    That's why your money is determined by whether or not you get it in on time, your incentive to both keep a set schedule and to delay such unforeseen difficulties. It may be harsh, but "any time before midnight" is practically a whole extra day as it is, and you gave us this trust as oversight for yourself.


    What he said. A deadline is the line you can not cross, or you failed. I couldn't care less (this time) that the comic was late. Point of fact, I didn't even check it until after 1am EST. Even if I did, it wouldn't really bother me. I'm not a stickler for time for myself, and I don't hold people to a higher standard. But other people may feel differently, and they are completely justified in calling it out as not "on time" and withholding any promised payment. An agreement was broken, a promise not lived up to. Failing while trying your best is still failing.

    Your biggest take away from this should be a wake up call that you are still fucking up your time management & time goals. Like vmag said above, you really should be done a full 24 hours sooner than you are. If anything, the last day should only be used for final minor error corrections, at most. Anything major, such as finishing a panel should already have been done. You should have it planned out so that you routinely finish the day before a page goes up.
    You're got to be giving yourself quite a bit of unnecessary stress on "posting days" by putting things off so far. People can find the adrenaline kick of a rapidly approaching deadline very motivational, but in the long run that's bad for you, and bad for your business. You're going to miss some of your deadlines now and then as there will always be temptation to cut it a little bit closer, sometimes going too far. Luckily, you've got the most forgiving and understanding fan base that I have ever seen, but understanding doesn't go on forever, and there's no reason that it should have to. At a minimum, you shouldn't treat yourself so badly.


    Last edited by wraith203 on Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Why I wait sometimes
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:03 am 
    E is for Erfworld Supporter Battle Crest Pins Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter This user is a Tool! Year of the Dwagon Supporter This user was a Tool before it was cool Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter
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    Honestly, all I really care about is getting quality updates like you usually deliver. Getting two a week is even better, but having them "on time" isn't a big deal to me.

    I am still an Old School Tool, as I just wanted to give you money without worrying about update frequency. When the new Tool program to pay by the update came out, I figured staying on the old plan would mean giving you more money than $0.50 an update (at least, based on update frequency before the change). I have been absolutely astounded that you have kept your schedule so well. I will probably switch to the new Tool program when my current term is up because of that.

    Ultimately, I just want to support Erfworld, and I care more about quality than quantity. Anyone who has signed up to be a Tool who is going to complain about getting the update a few minutes or hours late should probably reevaluate why they have signed up to be a Tool. It is about supporting Erfworld, not just monetarily, but also being understanding when Boop happens.

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     Post subject: Re: Why I wait sometimes
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:25 am 
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    I became a paying Tool because the one and only thing I wanted from my donation was to incentivize the Erf team to post on time updates. I don't care about the Toolbox or the side projects like the gaming forum; I just want some comics.

    I stopped being a paying Tool when the updates started being very last minute. I can't return to being a Tool if you can get a post up late and collect payment anyway; that's shady. Even for a good cause like quality control, it's shady. Whatever the technical issue, if you'd proofread earlier we wouldn't be here.

    Shift to a Patreon-like structure and let me donate a monthly rate based on total updates (not tied to particular times). I'd love to get behind that, I want to pitch in and help again.

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     Post subject: Re: Why I wait sometimes
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:44 am 
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    Two things:
    1. I'm not going to step in and tell you how to make Erfworld. It's your creation, not mine. I'm just thankful you share it with us.
    2. Glitches happen to all of us. It's okay. ]8\

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     Post subject: Re: Why I wait sometimes
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:44 am 
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    I love ErfWorld and I'm a huge fan of yours, Rob, but on time is on time and late is late.

    Among the purposes of revising the toolshed from a yearly fee to daily micropayments for on-time updates was to incentivize you to build a week or more’s worth of comics so that you would never be in this position again. So you could take a vacation and not have to worry about missing updates. “Last minute” should be two weeks before you need to post the update, not the day of the update. If you had a queue, you could plan to post each update at 12:00:01 each day. There would be no (or at least few) worries. Sometimes boop happens.

    I realize you’ve acknowledged that ship’s sailed a long time ago. You’re back to barely making on-time updates all the time again. I’ve given up hope you’ll ever go back to posting anything on Wednesdays anymore, too. It’s just not going to happen. I’d like to think I’ve settled it in my soul, but obviously it’s still something that aggrieves me. When is Festivus again? Let us air our grievances…

    I wouldn’t mind if you’d just drop down to one update a week until you could build a queue of pages. Or drop down to one update a week forever and give yourself more time for your other creative efforts like the game table and Kickstarter projects. You’re brilliant and talented and have high standards, and that’s why you have us fans in your camp! But no one has all the time they want to do everything they want…

    I figure everybody gets a freebie once. But don’t think you can claim to be on time when you weren’t and not have to revise the rules you operate the toolshed under. And I’m fine if you want to do that. I will support Erfworld until you stop updating it. But please try to make this the one exception rather than the rule.

    This update was amazing. I can’t wait for Tuesday’s! Thanks for creating this wonderful world for us to share and enjoy!

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     Post subject: Re: Why I wait sometimes
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 3:07 am 
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    nulloverride wrote:
    I'll be straight - I love the text updates because I love reading and novels and sci fi and fantasy and especially Erfworld. But I feel like the artists are not held to the same quality for which I pay several dollars an issue for with Marvel or DC comics. All my "mainstream" comics come with one issue a month - full art, to whatever detail is established for the series. The text updates give us a lot of information and we can use our imaginations, but I don't feel like it's a true replacement for several pages of full-art updates we would otherwise receive. Marvel manages to pay about 15 people for 20 pages of full-art comics per series per month. I base that on Poe Dameron 11 I'm holding in my hand right now. In one month we can expect about 8 or 9 updates, which means $4 or $4.50 for you per person at minimum. Some people pay more for the minimum or nothing. I get there are people paying nothing. But you can't wait till the end of the day to reward people who are paying SOMETHING. I pay you as much as I pay Marvel comics for your work and you do not deliver as much as Marvel comics does. I am disappointed and I don't believe you're accurate with your billing. Not a happy camper.

    Replying to this further, the comparison of "Poe Dameron 11" to Erfworld doesn't fly, because Erfworld isn't just a comic. It's a website. It's a community. The Toolshed doesn't just go to the production of graphics and story, but to the maintenance of this site, which facilitates this community. So yes, Erfworld is more expensive than your average comic book, because it costs more to produce. Without the "overcharging" Erfworld's tech support wouldn't be getting paid, and this problem wouldn't have been fixed within the hour that it occurred.


    Edit: As for the people saying that there should be a backlog, from what I gather, it wouldn't help. Rob is a perfectionist. He's always going to be tempted to do final checks and make last second changes if they occur to him. Doesn't matter how much time he's given himself. Is it a character flaw? Maybe. But it also produces art of an amazing quality. If the site hadn't crapped out, the update would have been on time. I don't blame Rob for not wanting to eat an $1800 loss for something that he had no control over.

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    Last edited by Lipkin on Sat Mar 04, 2017 3:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Why I wait sometimes
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 3:15 am 
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    Just a curious peep here, but why is the system designed around on-time updates instead of just updates?

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     Post subject: Re: Why I wait sometimes
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 3:33 am 
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    I see two real sides to this: 1) Erfworld is a business, and 2) Erfworld is a webcomic that I enjoy. I'll start with #2. I love this comic. I give you money so that you can continue to make comics and have regular updates. I love that. I love that you've become regular in your posting and updates. I don't even care if a post is late. It still happens, and that's so much better than posts sometimes happening. Back to #1. You're a business, and you've entered into a financial contract with each Tool. We give you money, you give us on-time updates. Depending on how much we give, we get extra stuff, too. That's it in a nutshell.

    It's really hard to take your hobby from being just that to a business, but that's what you've done, and that deserves some kudos. However, in every job, there are things that we don't like about our job. That's why we get paid to do it.

    I don't have an answer. I'm not even sure what my opinion is, tbh. The rules lawyer in me says, "The rules say <this>. It didn't happen." The person who's literally super happy whenever FB tells me that the new page is up, couldn't care less about any of that, and is just happy that you're working hard to give us regular updates, and is willing to give you money to keep that happening.

    You've given yourself a self-imposed carrot/stick. I'm not sure why, but you did it. I don't care about it, but you had to have a reason for doing so. I want you to be able to take my money so that you can continue to tell your story. I'd also like for you to think about why you made it based on 'on-time update'. Is that what you really want/need? I feel like you're doing yourself more a of disservice if you're breaking your own rules than you are to us. Either you set the arbitrary deadline for a reason or you didn't. If you had a reason, either it's still valid or it isn't. If it is, and you don't follow it, it makes it easier to ignore it, thus making it irrelevant. If it isn't valid, change it.

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     Post subject: Re: Why I wait sometimes
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 3:51 am 
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    To the people who think Rob shouldn't have counted this update as "on time" - if that were the case, it wouldn't have gone up now at all, we'd have missed "Friday's" update, and we'd see this update on Monday as Monday's "on-time" update. Is that what you'd rather have had? Not me.

    Besides, I'm on the west coast so I think it was still Friday for me :)

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