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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:32 pm 
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I've been wondering, what amount of mass-energy do you think a single Shmucker represents? In Erfworld itself of course, in our world it represents a dime. XD

My own guesses are around 50kg of mass, equaling 2.8×10^37 eV (electronvolts)
(using E = mc^2) (1.2 trillion kilowatt hours)

Since a single Shmucker sustains a piker for 1 turn.

Which is "holy shit" levels of energy. O.o;

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     Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:54 pm 
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    I think it's lower, if only because we don't actually know that the upkeep of a vanilla Level 1 Piker is 1 Shmucker.

    From the wiki, the only confirmed are:
    • Parson Gotti — 1178 Shmuckers. Increased by 140 Shmuckers when he promoted himself to a Field Unit[5] from 1038 Shmuckers
    • Archons — from 200 to 500 Shmuckers
    • Digdoug Mole — 160 Schmuckers
    • Dove Barstool — 75 Schmuckers when minimized with rations
    • All Decrypted units — zero

    But sadly, most of the examples involve beings who have Magic in their makeup, so presumably some of the Shmuckers in the upkeep turn into Juice.

    Shmuckers more or less equaling juice I think is supported because a Signamancer can use Juice to create a contract, whereas otherwise it debits the treasury of the contract maker, as well as Moneymancers manipulating Shmuckers with juice (into gems, etc).

    Edit: and if you want a purely newtonian answer, a Shockmancer can turn Juice into force, so if you found the variables, you could calculate Shmuckers as a function of Juice as a function of Shockmancy force.

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     Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:32 pm 
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    This is putting real world logic into a place where it doesn't work. The cost of upkeep doesn't usually have anything to do with the amount of energy needed to keep a unit alive. It has to do with the value of a unit to a side. So a warlord takes more upkeep then a regular unit, even though neither use magic and both have the same body mass.

    It is like a game. Better units cost more. And rulers probably need no upkeep.

    But for fun, and to try to rationalize why some units need more upkeep/schmuckers, we could say that a warlord needs more of the life element then a regular infantry in order to do higher level decision making. This life, costs more upkeep.

    Life, body mass, and juice all contribute to the upkeep cost of a unit.

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     Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:13 pm 
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    Spicymancer wrote:
    I think it's lower, if only because we don't actually know that the upkeep of a vanilla Level 1 Piker is 1 Shmucker.

    If anything, we have good reason to believe that it is more than that - normal uncroaked have some low but existent upkeep, and they're supposed to be much less expensive than ordinary units. If a level 1 Piker cost 1 shmucker, uncroaked couldn't be cheaper unless they cost fractional shmuckers.

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     Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:13 pm 
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    I could have sworn the normal not-uncroaked piker upkeep was mentioned in a canon update somewhere, but damned if I know where. XD

    Probably in Book 0 or a side story that doesn't count officially yet.


    As far as reality vs Erfworld, well, yeah, I'm bored so this is a silly topic, not meant to be taken too seriously.

    I just got a kick out of thinking that if Stupidworld could figure out how to convert Shmuckers to energy, they'd have a legit reason to invade Erfworld. XD

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     Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:31 pm 
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    Shmuckers actually have no intrinsic value, they're just IOUs from the Titans.

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     Post Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:55 pm 
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    Shmuckers aren't mass-energy, they're information, like all Clevermancy.

    Besides, mass-energy conservation manifestly doesn't hold in Erfworld. We know that from nearly all applied Stuffamancy and quite a few types of magic that involve the Matter element, like Flower Power.

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     Post Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:44 pm 
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    Alternately, casters are all various flavors of QuantumMancers. After all, the probability of a slice of chocolate cake coalescing in your hand out of random quantum vibrations of air molecules is extremely low but not 0.

    XD

    We know these events happen randomly in Erfworld as well as "on demand" - quantum probabilities could be skewed in Erfworld, such that a Boltzmann brain, complete with a weapon and armor, can coalesce seemingly at the will of the side's ruler but really it was just random and coincidental.

    If Shmuckers can "do work" then they have an energy level of some sort. The lower level might be the material cost of 3 meals a day. Whether the Shmucker is creating food out of raw energy (as in E = mc^2) or whether it cheats by putting in just enough energy to manipulate seemingly random events to cause food to pop into existence. (Or steals it from somewhere, etc. It could borrow the mass from Erfworld's star, that would only make the star last longer by reducing its mass.)

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     Post Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:42 pm 
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    The Chickpea update taught us that an etsy costs one single Shmucker per turn. Darned if I know how much pikers cost.

    Maybe an etsy can be a unit of measurement. It's like a horsepower... or chickpower, in this case. (Erg-world?)

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:18 am 
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    Why would you assume that in a world with completely alien constants, that mass in fact has the same energy density as it does in our universe? It doesn't work that way in Unicorn Jelly for instance.

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:58 am 
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    I'm not assuming it is, but we have little to go on. Any solid evidence would be helpful.

    The existence of rainbows in Erfworld shows that light is quantized, which means quantum phenomena and probably the whole particle zoo we're familiar with. There's a speed limit to the transmission of information (causality, light, etc), otherwise everything would happen all at once. XD There is a sun and stars - the jumping backward/forward of the sun in the sky between hexes could be local time dilation/contraction, so I don't think it's a Discworld-style miniature sun but rather a real full-sized star undergoing fusion.

    Also, Parson hasn't melted, exploded, spontaneously caught on fire, turned into dust, or imploded into a black hole, and his upkeep isn't the trillions of Shmuckers that I think it would take to rewrite literally every rule of reality nonstop just for him, so yeah I'm assuming a few things. :) Mostly that the same physical laws we know exist there, to a similar enough degree that Parson can survive, and that magic and popping and hex borders and stuff is layered on top.

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:06 am 
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    Why would you rewrite all of reality all the time for him? Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just change him instead? Again, like Unicorn Jelly.

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:08 am 
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    Erfworld is game-like.

    Much of how it appears to Parson is "because of Signamancy."

    Why can't it be gamelike in the underlying modeling? Things (like rainbows) appear not because of some deep correspondence to our world's physics but because that's a Sign that Parson will understand.

    We have plenty of solid evidence that physics in Erf simply do not correspond to physics in Stupidworld. Arrows sticking in mid-air rather than go through a hex boundary off-turn, time being relative to sharing a hex with forces of a side taking their turn, portals to the MK, virtually all magic...including requiring magic to make guns operate.

    I guess that's not the evidence you want, but it's the evidence we've got.

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:25 pm 
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    Shai hulud wrote:
    Why would you rewrite all of reality all the time for him? Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just change him instead? Again, like Unicorn Jelly.


    The spell is described as 'holding' him in Erfworld via his upkeep cost, which implied to me that, if he were returned, there'd be no spare energy for reconversion. Tho that could have easily been paid for in the initial cost of the spell as well.

    Chiu ChunLing wrote:
    We have plenty of solid evidence that physics in Erf simply do not correspond to physics in Stupidworld. Arrows sticking in mid-air rather than go through a hex boundary off-turn, time being relative to sharing a hex with forces of a side taking their turn, portals to the MK, virtually all magic...including requiring magic to make guns operate.


    Hex borders could be a field, like a magnetic field. The polarity of the field aligns with an unknown field emitted by Erfworlders during their "turn". Hexes could have independent flows of time, that doesn't violate our physics. There are forces in Erfworld that we don't understand, hexes/borders are one of them, time dilation, the speed of causality, etc. Without any real evidence one way or another, we can just go right ahead plug in our own universe's numbers for everything currently undefined. Since there's no contradiction yet. It doesn't matter. XD ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediocrity_principle and etc )

    From a physics perspective, Erfworld could be exactly like our universe except that it is a very 'unlikely' universe, meaning it has skewed quantum probabilities for events. I doubt any side would be building a quantum random number generator to test this anytime soon tho.


    And regarding rainbows, I mean the rainbow spectrum in visible light that we see is an inherent property of the quantization of photons. Which means quantum mechanics exists, in some form.

    This is based on Erfworld being a real physical place somewhere (in the story of course, relax lol)

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:07 pm 
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    Chiu ChunLing wrote:
    We have plenty of solid evidence that physics in Erf simply do not correspond to physics in Stupidworld. Arrows sticking in mid-air rather than go through a hex boundary off-turn, time being relative to sharing a hex with forces of a side taking their turn

    Stupidworld is just an Erfworld-like setting where the entire planet is one big hex. That's why it's called "stupid".

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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:00 am 
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    Chiu ChunLing wrote:
    I guess that's not the evidence you want, but it's the evidence we've got.

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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:26 am 
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    Beeskee wrote:
    After all, the probability of a slice of chocolate cake coalescing in your hand out of random quantum vibrations of air molecules is extremely low but not 0.


    I now have a new hobby: trying to manipulate the random quantum vibrations of air molecules to produce chocolate cake in my hand. So far, I've managed a bit of... well, nothing. Hope does spring eternal, however.

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     Post Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:13 am 
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    Good luck! :D

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