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 Post subject: Juicy, juicy warlords
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:33 pm 
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To clarify, this is unrelated to the PSL thread... mostly. ;)

Anyway, weird, mostly nonsensical idea.

We know from Maggie that issuing orders takes juice. Warlords issue orders. Sooo... all warlords have juice. Possibly infinite juice! Or, if it is finite, the worlds bossiest warlord eventually ends up too pooped to tell anyone what to do.

However, since juice can travel via Strings, I posit that a warlord ruler with a caster (or vice versa) constantly giving their caster orders, will eventually refill their juice supply... just, uh, hopefully having first prefaced the order-palooza with "ignore all the following orders until your juice is full".

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     Post Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:47 pm 
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    My theory is "since Leadership is date-a-mancy, then commanding is thinkamancy."

    I think Maggie said that "issuing orders takes juice" because ordering is natural thinkamancy, therefore she uses her casting to issue them, since she is a thinkamancer. The amount is probably negligible, and can't be gamed.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:33 am 
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    I don't remember that Maggie stated that, but I'm guessing it's because she's a thinkamancer, not because something in orders inherently costs juice.

    Although, it could be an interesting limitation on rulers, although less relevant because getting a huge side is very hard - that maybe after a certain threshold, you can't order all your units, and you will have to rely on commanders under you. That means each commander unit will have much more initiative, which could leads to problems.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:00 am 
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    If I recall, it's remote/mental orders that take juice but yes. It implies that Stanley, Jillian and possibly even Parson have juice.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:25 am 
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    The implication of "Natural" magic (like command) is that the unit using it doesn't have to supply the juice involved.

    So a ruler can cast Natural Dirtamancy/Moneymancy by improving or razing a city, that does mean that juice is involved but it does not mean that the ruler has a juice reserve like a caster does. Same for orders or regular cognitive processes, with the difference being that the natural Thinkamancy involved must apply juice to the unit itself, but that is Erf, Fate, or Numbers applying the juice to the unit, not the unit casting on itself.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:26 pm 
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    The experiment I'd be running to test that hypothesis is to have a Thinkamancer try to link up with a warlord.

    "Now... remember the first Order you ever gave. Think about the feeling as the units obeyed. Let it fill you. Forget about Charles Hasty. Release yourself and become War Lord rather than a warlord.

    What would that linkup do if it were possible? :o

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     Post Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:49 pm 
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    My read on Maggie's comment is not that it takes juice to issue an order in general, but rather that it takes juice for HER to issue orders. A Thinkamancer can relay orders to units in the field, just like the Ruler can, but it takes Juice to make the connection, whereas the ruler is already connected. I'm not sure that a regular, garden-variety Warlord can issue orders remotely, without some means to communicate (thikagram, hat message, scribbled note carried by passenger ORLY, Shouting Really Loudly, etc).

    We'll also have to come up with some justification that the Order that's issued actually transfers juice, rather than just using it up. If Wanda smacks Roger with a Hoboken, she's not giving him juice, just using juice to attack. Same with the order, probably...if the Warlord is spending a minute amount of Juice to issue orders via natural thinkamancy, that juice would be used up, not sent down the line.

    But, I bet you;re right. I bet there's an exploit here, somewhere. I could see Tahhornhill's idea about linking with a Warlord granting unlimited juice in the right circumstances.

    Another thought. I hate to fall back on Carneymancey as the best way to unlock an exploit, but what about this; assume Warlords have a virtually unlimited pool of juice, with which they issue orders. Hypothetical Carneymancer casts on Bunny: "For this turn, this unit's Special changes from draining Life, to draining Juice". Bunny then drains a million points of Caesar's unlimited Juice. Caesar doesn't notice the difference, Bunny wins Erfworld...

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     Post Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:58 pm 
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    But the unlimited juice that a ruler uses to improve/raze cities doesn't come from the ruler, it comes from the hex containing a city site, and the side's connection to their capital site.

    We know from Maggie's investigation of Jed that something similar seems to be going on with the connection between a ruler and the side's other units (and thus between warlords and units in their command). Sure, there is an infinite juice exploit in that, and Deisaac means to tap it...by tapping the thing that actually has infinite juice.

    Which is not Stanley.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:45 pm 
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    I think that if juice does get used, it's so minimal to only matter to casters, whoch have other uses for juice. You can only do so much in a day. It might also just be using Thinkamancy to give more detailed orders than natural Thinkamancy can do, at least remotely.

    Lawence of Awabia wrote:
    If Wanda smacks Roger with a Hoboken, she's not giving him juice, just using juice to attack.

    A high mastery Shockamancer might be able to extract juice from that, reducing the hit points lost.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:44 pm 
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    Very intriguing. I have an idea or two in that vein, and y'all have blazed most of the trail already.

    Other miscellaneous clues: Commanders can sense treasuries. Jillian could sense the stats on her recently-conquered new capital, el-Efbaum. Lord Forecastle could sense the stats and crews of his side's ships.

    Senses. Senses everywhere.

    Hungirly awaits wrote:
    I don't remember that Maggie stated that, but I'm guessing it's because she's a thinkamancer, not because something in orders inherently costs juice.

    I agree, but the orders might still involve strings. If anything involves strings, then let's hack it.

    tadthornhill wrote:
    The experiment I'd be running to test that hypothesis is to have a Thinkamancer try to link up with a warlord.

    "Now... remember the first Order you ever gave. Think about the feeling as the units obeyed. Let it fill you. Forget about Charles Hasty. Release yourself and become War Lord rather than a warlord.

    What would that linkup do if it were possible? :o

    Darned if I know, but that is another suggestive link idea. Best guess: "cognitive copilot" for the warlord's equivalent of a thought bubble -- mainly intuition and estimating consequences. Also more efficient training, whether that's for combat or for tea.

    As an aside: I had a brief fanfiction idea back when Parson first unrolled the Scroll of GTFO. I thought he'd spend a night or two in the Magic Kingdom wondering if he really was a caster, then asking Maggie to link up with him to see what happened. For whatever reason, it wouldn't work, but they'd tell each other it was a good try, even if they were privately disappointed. Yes, the story would've used a lot of subtext, but I don't know how to make impotence sound funny, so I scrapped the idea.

    Chiu ChunLing wrote:
    But the unlimited juice that a ruler uses to improve/raze cities doesn't come from the ruler, it comes from the hex containing a city site, and the side's connection to their capital site.

    We know from Maggie's investigation of Jed that something similar seems to be going on with the connection between a ruler and the side's other units (and thus between warlords and units in their command). Sure, there is an infinite juice exploit in that, and Deisaac means to tap it...by tapping the thing that actually has infinite juice.

    Which is not Stanley.

    This is where things start getting good. I'm drawing from the above summary and from Maggie's confused musings upon Jed's and the Makaleka's strings. Like Maggie, I'm not sure how to unravel those musings. My best theory is that there is more than one hub of strings per side. One is the capital, full of Shmuckers and side-defining identity (plus theoretical bonus strings for whatever the boop gives casters a bonus when they cast atop towers.) The other hub is the ruler, who knows where everyone is and gives orders just as easily. There's more than one way to unite a side, is what I'm saying... or guessing. [shrug]

    Now, if Deisaac and co. hack Jed, that'll be a hoot, no question. But for now, I'd like to pursue the notion of juicy warlords. Whether or not they use juice, I would posit that they do pluck strings, if only unconsciously and via natural magic. If so, let's hack that string. How?

    I suggest we do what Maggie, Sizemore, and Ace did -- give awakened consciousness to dynamics and senses that only ever existed on an undetectable, automatic level. Since we're delving into people instead of Dirtament, we'll be needing a Date-a-mancer. Since we're stitching perceptions instead of golem parts, let's replace Ace with a Carnymancer (or Turnamancer if you hate carnies, or a second Thinkamancer because why not.)

    Potential result: instead of an awakened tower, you get an uplifted warlord with the senses of a Ruler. (Bonus mayhem points if this includes the authority of a Ruler.)

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     Post Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:21 pm 
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    But we can already give a warlord the senses of a ruler.

    Have warlord go barbarian, and claim a capital site. Poof. Warlord now has ruler senses and functions as a ruler.

    Because that's what makes a warlord (or any unit) a ruler...being the speaking unit to lay claim on a capital site.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:13 am 
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    Chiu ChunLing wrote:
    But we can already give a warlord the senses of a ruler.

    Have warlord go barbarian, and claim a capital site. Poof. Warlord now has ruler senses and functions as a ruler.

    That's fine by me -- it means there's a common precedent for uplifting! (Of course, there's also promotion to heir followed by death of the Ruler, but only if one wants to be all morbid about it.) The challenge then becomes obtaining more than one unit with Ruler senses per side at one time. If the precedent is acceptable enough, then a Carny in the tri-link could have an easier job of it.

    ///

    Other idea: Chief Warlords provide bonuses here and there. Janis figured this was natural Date-a-mancy, not Thinkamancy, but there's probably a string involved somewhere. I propose a Date-Carny link that allows Chief Warlords to give their full bonuses to the entire side everywhere.

    :hamstard: x :tv: OTP

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     Post Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:44 am 
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    Towers have Juice. G-strings of sided units are connected through Tower. Commands are issued through Tower to units. Thinkamancer allows for more precise communication, as Towers (with rare exception) do not have the cognizance to relay complex information or to interpret minutia (like Parson's sarcasm or quips).

    In short, I think the most logical explanation of Commands are actually a Tower's Natural Thinkamancy using the G-strings knotted within it.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:13 pm 
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    Brother Mirtillo wrote:
    The challenge then becomes obtaining more than one unit with Ruler senses per side at one time. If the precedent is acceptable enough, then a Carny in the tri-link could have an easier job of it.
    No need for a tri-link. A master Thinkamancer could pull Ruler and other unit into Thinkspace and simulate the ruler senses for the non-ruler...it's just a big secret that they can do that.

    If you want to do a co-ruler thing, then master Signamancy is enough. Wanda did a pretty good job of laying out the terms involved. Interesting that Charlie didn't just agree to the terms and try to Carny them, isn't it?

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