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 Post subject: Re: Do twins exist?
 Post Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:46 am 
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Valid points. Still won't believe there is such a thing as Twin Warlords until I see a some in the story.

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     Post subject: Re: Do twins exist?
     Post Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:37 am 
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    Mmm, normal units I wouldn't think could apply here since they don't really have a concept of family.

    But Royal units do. So since they have the concept of family I could see the chance for twins kicking in.

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     Post subject: Re: Do twins exist?
     Post Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:52 am 
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    Twins could exist by other mechanics than "warlords pop double on rare occasion". For example:

    "Twin cities" (cities in adjacent hexes) might pop units that are "twins" if they are popping the same thing.
    The use of magic might allow you to cause unit production to result in twins (e.g. a Dittomancer/Turnamancer link lets you double the units that pop)
    You might be able to pop twins normally by simply taking twice as long to pop them - this would be rarely done, because why take 2X turns to pop two warlords when you can get one warlord after X turns, and then decide whether you want/can afford another?
    Units popped in stacks might naturally contain 'twins' - these twins could hypothetically be promoted to warlords. However, infantry units becoming warlords is rare, so infantry twins becoming warlord twins would then be even rarer.

    All of these would only happen under very rare circumstances, but seem quite plausible to me.

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     Post subject: Re: Do twins exist?
     Post Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:02 am 
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    jbevermore wrote:
    Mmm, normal units I wouldn't think could apply here since they don't really have a concept of family.

    But Royal units do. So since they have the concept of family I could see the chance for twins kicking in.


    Family is a weird concept in Erfworld. In a way a ruler is everyone's father or mother, since they're the one that ordered their creation. A random piker is just as much a ruler's son as their heir is.

    So "family" really means the noble units that are important enough for the ruler to care about.

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     Post subject: Re: Do twins exist?
     Post Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 12:07 pm 
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    Jetstone's stack of archers in the text updates of book 2 considered themselves sisters and brothers. Therefore Erfworlders other than Nobles have family, mostly figured by location and time popped.

    To paraphrase Kelly Turnbull: "Your stack is basiccally your family. You know, do what you can to get the 'human experience' and level up to be an adjusted unit all things considered"

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     Post subject: Re: Do twins exist?
     Post Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:09 pm 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    Valid points. Still won't believe there is such a thing as Twin Warlords until I see a some in the story.



    This could really be a pretty simple dittomancy spell. It would actually be harder to think it not to be fairly basic dittomancy.

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     Post subject: Re: Do twins exist?
     Post Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:10 pm 
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    ╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛ wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    Valid points. Still won't believe there is such a thing as Twin Warlords until I see a some in the story.



    This could really be a pretty simple dittomancy spell. It would actually be harder to think it not to be fairly basic dittomancy.


    Dittomancy seems to deal mostly with on the spot duplicates. Doubling arrows, creating a 1 turn double, etc.

    Sure I could see creating a permanent close as a very high level dittomancy spell but something that wickedly powerful can hardly be considered basic.

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     Post subject: Re: Do twins exist?
     Post Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:26 pm 
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    jbevermore wrote:
    ╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛ wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    Valid points. Still won't believe there is such a thing as Twin Warlords until I see a some in the story.



    This could really be a pretty simple dittomancy spell. It would actually be harder to think it not to be fairly basic dittomancy.


    Dittomancy seems to deal mostly with on the spot duplicates. Doubling arrows, creating a 1 turn double, etc.

    Sure I could see creating a permanent close as a very high level dittomancy spell but something that wickedly powerful can hardly be considered basic.



    Not create a double, just double the production (including the cost) of a unit still unfinished, considerably less powerfull since you do not know exactly what you are doubling and have to pay for it anyway.

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     Post subject: Re: Do twins exist?
     Post Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:44 pm 
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    ╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛ wrote:

    Not create a double, just double the production (including the cost) of a unit still unfinished, considerably less powerfull since you do not know exactly what you are doubling and have to pay for it anyway.
    Turnamancy already kind of does that, increasing production by spending juice.

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     Post subject: Re: Do twins exist?
     Post Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:41 pm 
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    I could see that working with dittomancy on the production, but I agree with Lipkin that even under those circumstances it'd be a very expensive thing. After all, if you double anything besides warlords, you know exactly what you're getting.

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     Post subject: Re: Do twins exist?
     Post Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:55 pm 
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    Yes but if you pay for it anyway you'll spend your treasury in no time for production and upkeep... it's not that powerfull, yes it help you build an army faster but so does a turnamancer, a dirtamancer and a croakamancer with their basic spells (quickening production creating golem, uncroaking)

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     Post subject: Re: Do twins exist?
     Post Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 6:34 am 
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    ╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛ wrote:
    Yes but if you pay for it anyway you'll spend your treasury in no time for production and upkeep... it's not that powerfull, yes it help you build an army faster but so does a turnamancer, a dirtamancer and a croakamancer with their basic spells (quickening production creating golem, uncroaking)

    Producing a unit doesn't cost anything except time. And upkeep wouldn't be that big of an issue by itself. Still having to pay upkeep keeps that from being insanely over powered, but it is still a massive boost, larger than a turnamancer gives. But like I said, not impossible, just doesn't sound like a basic level thing.

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     Post subject: Re: Do twins exist?
     Post Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 8:33 am 
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    Perhaps Dittomancers can create long term clones, but the difficulty and juice required increases with the power of the unit?

    A warlord or ruler might be difficult or impossible to clone for more than one turn. Something like a level 1 archer or stabber unit might be easy to duplicate for dozens of turns.

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     Post subject: Re: Do twins exist?
     Post Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 2:59 pm 
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    Taikei no Yuurei wrote:
    ╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛ wrote:
    Yes but if you pay for it anyway you'll spend your treasury in no time for production and upkeep... it's not that powerfull, yes it help you build an army faster but so does a turnamancer, a dirtamancer and a croakamancer with their basic spells (quickening production creating golem, uncroaking)

    Producing a unit doesn't cost anything except time. And upkeep wouldn't be that big of an issue by itself. Still having to pay upkeep keeps that from being insanely over powered, but it is still a massive boost, larger than a turnamancer gives. But like I said, not impossible, just doesn't sound like a basic level thing.



    Ho... since the cost to pop an heir was said to be high I assumed every units had a cost to pop them, my bad.

    Also, if a turnamancer makes you pop unit faster and a dittomancer could make you pop more unit at a time, comparing their power level is about how much faster a turnamancer can make the popping go since the extra units a turnamancer make are immediate and a dittomancer would pop them at the end of the normal time (or maybe more)

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     Post subject: Re: Do twins exist?
     Post Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 5:06 pm 
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    Has anyone ever said popping an heir cost anything? We know designating an heir takes a fair amount of money, and that popping one takes a fairly long production cycle, but I don't think that it has ever been said that it was expensive in and of itself.

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     Post subject: Re: Do twins exist?
     Post Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 5:24 pm 
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    Didn't transylvito pay for the heir of faq to be produced? I recall it is one of the reason there is so much tension between Caesar and Don...

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     Post subject: Re: Do twins exist?
     Post Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 5:53 pm 
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    Transylvito demanded that Jillian pop a royal heir, but that doesn't mean they are paying for it. They have given Faq four-fifths of their treasury, but that was used for leveling their cities: Faq to level four and Otoh and Kibo to level two each. Those schmuckers are probably paying the upkeep of Faq's bloated military. We haven't seen anything that tells us one way or another if production requires schmuckers, although the upkeep of units after they are popped certainly does. We do know, from the So-Be-It-Unit, that a side can choose not to produce anything. It may be like some strategy games where production can be converted into income, adding to the schmuckers those cities produce. If that is the case, then the cost of production can be thought of as the opportunity cost of not gaining those extra schmuckers. This is, of course, entirely speculation on my part, though.

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     Post subject: Re: Do twins exist?
     Post Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 6:25 pm 
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    Mrtyuh wrote:
    It may be like some strategy games where production can be converted into income, adding to the shmuckers those cities produce.
    I have no solid reason to claim that production can't work that way, but just consider how that would discourage the creation of large armies and the endless war that Erfworld is famous for. In strategy games people have no reason to avoid fighting because no one is actually dying. In Erfworld, if not producing actually gave people extra shmuckers, then surely arrangements like the So-be-it Union would be so popular that war would become very rare. A side would tend to reach a point where they can pay the upkeep on their army if they stop producing, and then they would actually stop producing instead of sending their army off to capture someone else's cities for shmuckers.

    Therefore I would bet that any unused production is just wasted.

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     Post subject: Re: Do twins exist?
     Post Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 8:09 pm 
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    Could always pop beasts and harvest them.

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     Post subject: Re: Do twins exist?
     Post Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 8:31 pm 
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    And not popping new unit also doesn't make your side's upkeep go higher, so any schmuckers your cities produce are not used for upkeep and make your side richer. So even if IRL i'm more on the left spectrum for political stuff, I'm tempted to consider that austerity might actually be a good strategy in erfworld when you reach a certain size.

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